I am what the Dutch call "web dumb." When people email and ask how they can subscribe to Stuff Christians Like, how they can get an RSS feed or get the posts via email my usual response is "So, the webscapes can do that now? Far out!"
Seriously, let's look at my online track record:
1. The domain name for this site was taken so I registered a new name with a typo in it.
2. Not understanding Twitter, I register myself as "ProdigalJohn." Only my name is Jon, so that's kind of a typo and a guarantee that none of my friends can search for me.
3. On facebook, I decide to go with "Jonathan Christopher" as my name creating further confusion. (That's my first name and middle name.)
4. I allow a 1957 Chevy dealer to take the .com version of this website.
All in all, I find that I tend to have the web skills of an 1840’s prospector.
That's why when it came to redesign this site I hired an expert named John Saddington. It's also why when the church I attend, North Point Community Church, announced they were starting an online church I was completely confused. I clearly want to seem postmodern and relevant so when I heard they were launching northpointonline.tv I had two choices:
1. I could nod my head and pretend I understood what online church was all about. (This is a technique I often do in conversations so that I don't look stupid.)
2. I could ask a bunch of questions.
Faking it is kind of exhausting and would make for a really boring post, so I decided to go with option number 2 and ask a bunch of questions.
Since North Point often sends out emails called, "A note from Andy Stanley" (the pastor of my church) I thought I would address the questions directly to him. (This is horrible, but every time I see the subject line "A note from Andy" in my inbox, I think to myself, "Andy finally emailed me! I bet he wants me to go on tour with him and Craig Groeschel, or maybe play flag football with him and Rick Warren or at the bare minimum he’s agreed to endorse the Stuff Christians Like book!")
So here are my questions for Andy Stanley about online churches, or maybe they're for you if you’re smarter than me about the whole online church movement:
1. If I'm watching a sermon online and I open up another window and answer some emails at the same time, is that a sin? Isn't that the cyber equivalent of doodling in your bulletin? If I have a really big monitor, does that change your answer?
2. What if the emails are from people I'm in a Bible Study with, so technically speaking, I’m participating in fellowship? Ohh curveball.
3. Do I have to stand up when the worship leader calls us to our feet?
4. If I don’t like the worship songs that day, can I DJ myself with some songs I like from iTunes?
5. If I have a bad connection or the wrong version of flash or my computer crashes, is it safe to assume that I can blame that on the devil? If so, can I put him on notice?
6. How long can I pause the sermon, go do chores/answer the phone/find more comfortable socks to wear etc. and then come back without it seeming like I've left church?
7. There are only two occasions in which I wear a belt: A business meeting at work where I want to look smart and church. Do I have to wear a belt to attend online church?
8. Is it weird if I'm still shy about singing with my hands raised during online church? Should I still be doing the ninja in my own home? Is that something a counselor can help me with?
9. If I watch the sermon on a podcast, do you mind if I fast forward through the first few minutes of the sermon where you recap last week's message for the people that weren't there?
10. Someone once told me they consider eating at Chick-Fil-A to be tithing. Now that I'm using my computer to attend church, can I consider a new Mac purchase to be like one big, silvery cool tithe?
11. Will you please not cut off the podcast before or in the middle of the closing prayer? People at home like closing prayers too. (I’m talking to you Matt Chandler.)
12. Is there anyway that you could create a frame around the video player that has a graphic of someone giving someone else a back massage during church, someone coughing and the heads of the tall family I inevitably manage to sit behind every Sunday so that the experience will feel more authentic?
Those are the questions I have for Andy Stanley. And for you.
Does your church have an online version?
Would you have asked something different than me?
What do you do online when it comes to church? Blogs? Podcasts? Video sermons?
Are you currently doing anything church related online?
So many questions!
I think online church has it's place - my wife uses it when the kids are too sick to take them to the nursery. But it is A LOT harder to pay attention to. There are so many distractions around you, that you end up missing half the message. I wonder if churches are trying too hard to be relevant and hip...Facebook, Twitter, blogs, podcasts, and streaming video have their places, but should not be the focus of the church. Now, back to streaming that video of last weeks sermon while I check this blog on my iphone..
ReplyDeleteDon't forget the millions of people who can't get to church because of severe illness.
ReplyDeleteI'm a young woman who is bed-bound and every slight movement, even talking, causes heart failure. All I can do is write a few sentences on this iPod I'm on whilst lying flat. So I try to raise awareness of the illness I have through Twitter by trying to get people to retweet this: RT @Stroopwaffle: Severe M.E. and me: My Story: http://tinyurl.com/d3o9td . It's a small thing, but each person who reads it means another person who now understands the illness.
I love that on-line church forces us to adress these questions. Their is a "chat" feature connected to our online church service. Initally, I took some issue with this.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that I realized is that chatting online is different than chatting verbally during the "real" service. It's an option to totally tune out writing, so the only people who see the online "chat" are the people who want to. If they were whispering to each other, in the service, we could try and ignore them, but that's much different.
The other thing that convinced me is that the online chat is very much on-topic to the worship and the sermon.
BELT? Oops. I was wondering if I'd have to wear PANTS.
ReplyDeleteWell, two things...
ReplyDeleteFirst, I went to try to be your Facebook friend, and even wrote this personal note (because I think it's the polite thing to do when requesting friendship to actually say something):
Hi Jon, I've read your blog for sometime... and since you so graciously shared your FB name on this last post, I thought I'd find you here, though I'm slightly disappointed you never posted my "Father Abraham" auto-tune remix. But, I don't hold grudges even if that was my breakout song.
Now wouldn't that make you accept the friend request?? But NOOOO, you have too many friends already - I missed the 5000 friend cutoff. So, I will be content with reading the blog and maybe following John on Twitter.
Second, if you or anyone is interested, I wrote a blog post recently about online church and video super-preachers and what folks are missing with an "average local preacher"...
http://robertaustell.blogspot.com/2009/08/piper-projection-and-pornography.html
Robert - Charlotte, NC
Great post. I use online church in much the same way as a multivitamin. A supplement that should never be designed as a replacement, unless medically necessary. And I podcast Mark Driscoll's sermons and listen to them in the car en route to distant campuses.
ReplyDeleteI learn things from watching the online superpreachers from time to time, but I think my real growth comes in my church, where I have to go. I think when we read "whereever two or more are gathered" didn't mean facebook.
ReplyDeleteThis was great! I'm smiling through the whole thing!
ReplyDeleteI have just been asked to redesign /update our church website.
Funny thing is, I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WEB DESIGNS! I have taught myself enough blog info to get through the day on my blog (STILL can't hyperlink in a comment) and I guess I've impressed a few people at my church with my blog site,(obviously they don't know much) so now they think I'm a computer geek, which is HILARIOUS because nothing could be further from the truth.
SO now, I'm trying to teach myself about redesigning a website...MUCH more difficult than a blog site.
But, thanks for the tips. I may post them on the new website as as RULES FOR VIEWING THE SERMON PODCAST ONLINE.
They should do one of two things during online prayers: 1) blackout the screen, because your eyes should be closed anyways, or 2) pan the audience to replicate what you really do during prayer (post #567).
ReplyDeleteHadn't at all realised you went to North Point. I already subscribe to Andy Stanley's podcasts :)
ReplyDeleteJon, I'm pretty sure you can change your Twitter username. Try it. And, Robert in Charlotte (my hometown...do you ever get up to China Grove and Gary's BBQ? It is the bomb.), you can become a fan of Jon on FB.
ReplyDeleteIf you're wanting to throw a link into your post, open a new window and scroogle.org for "HTML instructions." I do know how to do it, but I am typing on my iPhone and it's awkward to show all the stuff necessary with this little keyboard.
Here's a couple of other questions.
ReplyDeleteAre there cyber secret bathrooms?
If you buy donuts and coffee for fellowship, are they as blessed as the free ones in Sunday School?
Do they have cyber daycare and will there be goldfish?
Jon, you're absolutely right. This is something worth really thinking about. Fortunately, i'm nowhere near a superpastor and don't have to concern myself about this just yet.
AHAHAHA...so true! Matt's always cut off! The rest of your post was hilarious too, but this resonates with me since I'm a member at The Village Church. Nice!
ReplyDeleteWe download several sermons each week and transfer the files to CD for listening on car trips and giving away to friends.
ReplyDeleteOccasionally however, I'll listen to a podcast while sitting at the desktop. Over the last few months I've been coming to the conclusion that I've been ADD all my life, before the diagnosis ever existed.
So I'll never forget the first time -- and the associated guilt -- when I started clicking Solitaire cards as I was listening. Frankly, this type of multi-tasking only sharpens my concentration on the sermon.
Now I'm looking for a church that has video monitors installed in the last two rows for those of us who need a built-in distraction to hear the message more clearly.
What to do when you're completely confused about the subject? Option 2, *always* option 2! Even if I I'm not at all confused about the subject, it's amazing what you can learn by using option 2.
ReplyDeleteIn defense of Matt Chandler (I work in The Village Church's Communication Dept), the problem with the end of our podcasts getting cut off is an iTunes glich, the more times you hit pause, the more time gets cut off the end. As for the closing prayers you're missing, they mostly involve calling for fiery jugment of online churches.
ReplyDeleteNo 10 is my favourite. Buying a mac as part of my tithe? Genius.
ReplyDeletemy church has a 'create your own service' option online. you can choose your songs and pick which sermon to listen to. they're still in development but this fall they're revealing the 'Choose how god speaks to you option.' You'll be able to choose from dreams and visions, the bible, or a still small voice.
ReplyDeletei have to take this moment to apologize publicly. as a 19 year old girl who is 6'2" and still growing, with sisters that are 5'11" and 5'8", and a dad that's 6'3" (my mom's only 5'7" and kind of short), i sincerely apologize for the times when we come late and can't take our usual spot in the Very Back Row. it makes us feel extremely awkward knowing that the helpless un-tall family behind us is squirming around to try and see the screen.. i personally try to stand really still so i don't block the spot you do find to see through. just please know it is not always easy for us, and we do try our best. as for the tall families that are obnoxious and in the front row and really don't care - i don't associate with them.
ReplyDeleteplus, it's really frustrating when the mic will never stay high enough for what i need, so maybe a little sympathy?
now that i have that out in the open, i loved this post Jon! thanks for a smile on my last day of work for the summer!
I wonder if Andy Stanley has a special filter in place for any emails coming from you?
ReplyDeleteAs for online church, it is a sin to allow any distractions and you must conduct yourself as if you were in regular service, but you can click the "absolution" button if you commit any netsins for instant forgiveness.
I've never gone to online church. When I started seeing churchname.tv URLs on the twitter I had no clue what that was about. Thanks for making me not feel dumb. (Or alone in my dumbness anyway.)
ReplyDeleteAlso, since I'm new to SCL, I clicked all your links to old posts and laughed through every one of them. You are a riot, and I would even venture to say that--since a merry heart is good like medicine--you're an even better multi-vitamin than an online sermon. Please accept 200 points and my sincerest gratitude for the years you are adding to my life.
I've never heard of "online church." For some reason, that doesn't feel like real church to me. Because even if you're watching a video (even if it's a streaming video or podcast), you are not physically present there. And the presence of God, while He does hang around people in general, is much stronger when people gather together in one place in His name. I understand if you are too physically sick to get out of bed and come to church... but I don't think online church should ever take the place of the real Church/Body of Christ.
ReplyDeleteI attended North Point Online for the first time last week and enjoyed it. I happened to be fixing dinner while it was on. I didn't consider that to be sin, just an expert level of multitasking. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm part of a church plant, which means I rarely get the "usual" church experience, so I appreciate getting a dose of that now and then. But I agree. Some cuts to back massages would be tops.
I am what the Dutch call "web dumb." - Snort!
ReplyDeleteSo, still waiting for the comment from Andy...
I'm very guilty of not only attending online church, but attending pretty much exclusively. Which is especially bad because I'm in seminary, and one of the constant take-hope points of all our classes is that Christianity is a community deal, it's all about the community, you need to be in community...
ReplyDeleteIt's just so hard to be in community at 8:30 in the morning when I'd much rather be asleep! I can do online church whenever I need to. And I can listen to Driscoll preach, which I love. Bit too far from Seattle to do that IRL.
Still, whenever I get time, I go back up to Fort Collins and attend the church I joined in college. That church is still home for me.
Hmm - my word verification is "sello." Bit too close to "sellout" for my comfort... Might it be a sign? ;)
I thought your facebook name was to deter all the paparazzi trying to find and stalk you :)
ReplyDelete@Robert-
ReplyDeleteThree things:
1. The audio clip is great, but I think you missed the first part of the post, I am web dumb. I couldn't figure out how to load an audio clip onto this blog. I'm fairly confident my six year old could if I asked her but I'm too ashamed. I still have every intention to upload once the new Stuff Christians Like goes live in a few weeks.
2. Sorry about the friend request. There are two options. Wait until I say something that makes someone unfriend me, either because what I said was dumb, unfunny or both. or sign up for the fan page. The silliness of a fan page is not lost on me, but with facebook elbow of deathing anyone that reaches the limit on friends it might be an option.
3. I love Charlotte. My parents are from there and we still go up every now and then
Jon
We don't have an online church, but the CDs the pastor makes for folks to listen to do come in handy if you miss a service and are out driving in your car. As long as you don't take the whole "Let's bow our heads to pray" thing literally.
ReplyDeleteJon, how 'bout bumping that Terry Storch guy... he's got enough virtual friends already on lifechurch.tv Or maybe he and I could virtual arm-wrestle for that #5000 spot.
ReplyDeleteNo worries, I'm already a fan... all you're missing by not being my friend is some awesome pictures of my whole church going down Sliding Rock.
You've brought hope back into my life with the promise of "Father Abram" seeing the light of day. Carry that tender hope carefully.
And let me treat you to lunch if you are ever in Charlotte... I live in Matthews and my church is near the Arboretum, if that's anywhere near your parents. Cajun Yard Dog lunch for that #5000 spot? Eddie's Place? We'll work something out. :)
Okay, so spurred by savinggrc's comment... here's a go at HTML to link to my post on the merits of average, local preachers and community...
ReplyDeletePiper, Projection, and Pornography
And I haven't been to Gary's BBQ, but will put it on my list of things to do!
I don't get the "web dumb" thing.... and I'm Dutch XD
ReplyDeleteMy church puts all the sermons that go on during the week on podcasts. I usually download the ones I really liked at listen to them later.
ReplyDeleteAnd I totally want to visit your church.
I've been part of church online for the last year or so, it's great to see other churches considering this option. After my car accident I found church in person too hard and I heard about a church in Florida with online services around the same time so it was definitely a God thing.
ReplyDeleteThe best thing about it though is that they have skype chats as well, so you can all talk about the message and catch up with each other. I think this is what made the real difference, rather than just watching podcasts or whatever. I also have attended courses online and bible studies and have a real support network around me. Because of my brain injury going out and about too much can be extremely tiring so the online option has been amazing for me.
I wouldn't say this church is trying to hard to be hip and relevant either, I think it's meeting a need that is there.
What if you happen to fall asleep during online church?
ReplyDeleteI mean you are in a more comfortable place, most likely in a very comfortable pair of pajama pants (with a belt), and listening to a sermon.
So if you fall asleep while you're attending online church, do you have to replay it after you wake up and wipe the drool off your face?
When I watch church live online I usually dont surf the web as i listen-I started doing that one day then had to stop myself. But lately I cant even watch online because there is this awful delay thing going on with windows media player and it just wont work properly-your articles are hilarious by the way
ReplyDeleterofl @ the Village jibe.
ReplyDeleteIt's true (and, by the by, it's my church) and it's also the only podcast of a dozen I listen to (no, not all sermons - cartalk, engadget that sort of thing) that "goes past" the end of the scrubber as well. There is always a couple minutes that it keeps going even though it says there is 0:00 left to play. Weird.
@The Anthropologist
rofl firey judgement. Is there an online form of a Chandler-special "seat clearer" message? *(:
Do I have to usher myself even if I already know where I normally sit? And, if so, how do I sheepishly avert my gaze from my own eyes when I pass myself the offering plate when I don't have any money?
ReplyDeleteOnline church...hmmm. This will completely revolutionize church hopping.
ReplyDeleteWe go to online church every Sunday. While we were in KS we fell in love with the Church of the Resurrection and after we moved to Texas we were thrilled to still be able to "attend" our church. We get to go to church ion our pj's with the dog and two cats and I can drink all the Mt Dew I want during church. It's just too cool!
ReplyDeleteonline church, a good place to practice wide open worship, maybe video tape yourself to improve the moves then bust them out every other attended service
ReplyDeleteAm i missing something? What about the privilege of giving and honor of taking communion?
ReplyDeleteHas anyone secured www.gotochurchinyourunderwear.com?
ReplyDeleteAnd what about communion Sunday? Is it like facebook, where you get a superpoke from the deacon asking you to pass the tray to ten friends?
Here's a question I was wondering about:
ReplyDeleteIf you sign on ten minutes late to live online church, will you have to watch from a bad camera angle in the back, or watch through a window in the lobby?
i love the chick-fil-a comment--my husband tithes more than anyone in the world if that's true!
ReplyDeletejohn...those are good questions, but maybe you should just keep them to yourself...besides, with your "skills" your email to Andy will probably go straight to spam...
ReplyDeletehere's the deal...i triple dog dare you to guest post these questions on churchcrunch.com...u can even do it under my login/username...that's double-dog-dare
My church barely knows what the internet is. We have a website, but no one uses it because there is nothing interesting on it most of the time.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry ... I read about online churches, and the use of Twitter, and IMs, etc.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think about the human race on the spaceship in the Disney/Pixar flic Wall-E. Everyone in their own chair, interacting with others only through their screen/keyboard/phone.
No real interpersonal exchanges. I seriously doubt when Christ said where two or three meet in My name ... He meant an online chat room !!
Like so many things in life, it can be a huge blessing, or a giant stumblingblock. If I'm sick, non-ambulatory, etc, it can provide me the next best thing to physically 'connecting' with the membership.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the minute I try to convince myself it's the same thing so that I can stay home, I've allowed myself to get in the way of the main purpose.
The temptation will be to stay home so we can be sure to not miss the big game (for the last 14 of us without Tivo, anyway), or to stay up late the night before, 'planning' on getting up in time, but, oops, woke up late- Oh well- at least I don't have to miss church. I'll just turn it on while I lay here in bed.....zzzzz zzzz
Very few things are all good or all bad. It's usually in how they are used. I hope online church turns out to be a great outreach program for those in need, but that we're all careful to never try and fool ourselves into believing it's the same as actually attending and fellowshipping with our brothers and sisters in Christ.
We need each other too much to stay at home.
Just my two thoughts.
-The Poor Husband
Ah, yes. The serious one. ;-)
ReplyDelete-The Poor Husband's Wife
An old pastor of mine once did a short talk where he gave everybody a piece of coal. He wanted to remind us that Christians need to spend time in close fellowship with other believers to keep our fire burning. If we try to sit out on our own, the heat dies down like a piece of coal removed from the blaze & set aside - still warm, but not fulfilling it's full potential.
ReplyDeleteI set up a website about a year ago (www.ourchurch.com/member/f/fosa/) as a way to advertise what was going on in our church and when the services are, but now find the 'sermon catch-up' page, where the sermon from the previous Sunday is posted to be read (no fancy streaming here!) is the most visited section!
I can't see 'virtual' church ever replacing 'real' church, but as a means of encouraging people to come & be part of your congregation or reaching out to people who find it hard to physically attend services (and offer assistance - Home Communion for example) the internet is a useful tool - one new member of our congregation recently started attending after finding us online!
Oh my gosh, I had to pick myself up off the floor after laughing myself out of my chair! (no offense to all those that "need" online church) Excellent questions, to which I have no answers cause my church does good just to keep their website up-to-date. Although someone handy musta recently volunteered cause things are looking better as of late! If Andy answers - PAH-LEEZ post that!
ReplyDeleteIs attending an online sermon and having tabs of Icanhazcheezburger, Awkward Family Photos, FailBlog, and Neatorama open in the same browser at the same time a sin?
ReplyDeleteLove this post, particularly the webdumb part. I'm not that old and sometimes find myself resenting my own 'web savvy' and whatever expectations o web savvy that the universe continues to require of me and everyone else. It's just not fair. Twitter sux.
ReplyDeleteI'm still mystified with the idea of web church. I thought it was for people who would never darken ze doorway of a church building....with the ideal outcome being that they eventually decide that the risk of experience the scariness of church is worth trying out since real people are ultimately a good thing for your health. All your questions are justified. I await Andy's answers. (Once I stumbled upon a ranting comment discussion about how Northpoint sucked, and was pleezed to see Andy join in the conversation and contribute some humourous defense. Loved even more how everyone ranting totally backpedaled. Actually, I can't believe that Andy doesn't read this blog. How could he ever *not*?!
There is no such thing as an online church! The word for church as used in the New Testament is ecclesia, which is Greek for 'assembly.' SO, if church is really a gathering of people, we can't do that via the Internet. Sorry, pastors. :)
ReplyDeleteI guess you could call it an online sermon. That's different. I listen to podcasts from Greg Laurie, and I love them. I think they really help me dig deeper in the Word and gain understanding.
I just think we have to be careful to not depend upon technology to substitute interacting with people and their garlic breath, goofy laughs, and genuine personal connection. Cause that's way more important than sleeping in on Sunday mornings.
If online churches are reaching and engaging with people, then that's a good thing. Personally speaking, I'm far from a Luddite, but I can't see how online churches can provide me with community, fellowship, accountability, and discipleship.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you made the typo in your site name on purpose! I've always wondered whether you meant to do that, but I don't think I ever asked. It was something that made me wonder every time I looked at it though!
ReplyDeleteAlso, thanks to your post where you asked what kind of music people workout to, I've taken to listening to John Piper's sermons while at the gym. I love it!
You can actually change your twitter username to be prodigaljon. You just have to go into settings and change it. All of your followers will be the same and it won't really change anything, just your name. And I checked, prodigaljon on twitter doesn't exist yet. =)
ReplyDeleteOnline church -- I love it. Does my church have an online side? Not hardly, I'm the token internet-y person -- well me and that strange kid with the earrings.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, if I'm your internet connection (pun intended) you are in so much trouble.
Church members often refer to me as Mary, you know the one that does all that blogging stuff for those women's groups and that cruise thing. Real descriptive.
But Jon, I do have EVERYTHING in MaryRSnyder - site, twitter and facebook. of course, I went to business school and that's what they teach us -- get everything in your name. And have good attorneys, but that's a story for another day.
I need to be held accountable. A lot. I need to be sternly spoken to about not taking the narrow gated path. Frequently. And our pastor has a gift for knowing which sin I'm struggling with, or lost the battle. and rebuking me, personally, in a service of a 1,000 souls.
ReplyDeleteThere's something lost in online church on that level. It feels too impersonal and since I have the attention span of a Irish Setter, sitting in front of my computer is fraught with pitfalls. And I do not listen well anyway, so trying to read a week's worth of Stuff Christians Like, listen to the service and catch up with my e-mails.....message? There was a message?
But I think online church would be way awesome if I was physically or mentally unable to get to church. I work with people who would hyperventilate and pass out if they had to endure that many people, noise and space. I think it's an awesome option. But nothing replaces gathering together in His name and rejoicing in one another's presence.