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Thursday, September 17, 2009

#620. The sermon with 247 different points.

“Panic.”

That’s what I felt when North Point Community Church asked me to speak at their singles retreat. I was excited, certainly, but I was also terrified. North Point is Andy “freaking” Stanley. For years I’ve attended there and been in awe at the way they do things. They are like the Apple of churches to me and as I prepared my two messages, I felt violently under qualified to have my name associated with anything they do.

Part of the process was that I had to submit an outline with a fill in the blank structure before the retreat. I’ve never done that. I tend to just try to tell a story. At Cross Point Church I told three stories, did a little bit of the robot and wrapped it up. So when I sat down to write the outline for North Point, I entered into new territory, the territory of the “Over Pointer.”

Have you ever experienced a sermon by an Over Pointer, that curious species of Pastor who tends to pack 247 different points into one sermon? It’s possible this is just a Southern Baptist thing and that other denominations never suffer from this, but maybe it’s universal. Maybe the disease of over pointing is international. Regardless, it grabbed hold of me with a fierceness.

The outline I submitted to North Point for the “Date Less Jerks” speech (yes I know “fewer” is grammatically correct, but like a rapper, I focus on flow, not grammar) had 3 main points and about 42 sub points. It was supposed to be about 25 minutes long, which meant each point would get roughly 19.2 seconds of speech. I’m no math whiz, but I think that all adds up to a horrible sermon.

Fortunately, the staff at North Point saw my outline dilemma, recognized me as an Over Pointer and encouraged me to dial it back. But what about you, how do you spot an Over Pointer? How, upon entering a sanctuary, can you tell before the sermon even begins that you’re about to be over pointed?

The bulletin.

The secret to spotting an Over Pointer is to always check the bulletin. Here are the three things you want to look for:

1. Thickness or Girth
If they hand you a bulletin and it’s thicker than your wallet, you are in trouble my friend. If the person handing you the bulletin is visibly sweating and is wearing those carpal tunnel sleeves that people with wrist problems wear, it is on like donkey kong. You are about to be sermon noted like you’ve never been sermon noted before. I hope you brought a twelve pack of pens for all the note taking you’ve got in your very near future.

2. The amount of fill in the blanks
If the sermon notes look like a church version of the game “Mad Libs” and unfold like an accordion on paper that rivals the length of the scroll Jack Kerouac wrote “On the Road” on, you might be in trouble. My initial North Point outline had sentences like “A _________ is ______who ________ and _________ _______ your ________.” I would have made the punctuation a fill in the blank if I could have figured out a way to easily draw a line under a period. Brutal.

3. The Alphabet Sandwich
If you ever see numbers and letters spooning together in the sermon notes, get ready. There’s never any reason to break something down to points like 2B1, 2B2, and 2B3 with the numbers effectively serving as the bread in your alphabet sandwich. When you start to see letters and numbers frolicking across the page, you’re about to be over pointed. A sermon notes page should never look like a periodic table of the elements.

Those are the three warning signs, but I know what you’re thinking, “Jon, we don’t use bulletins at our church. Our minister doesn’t use sermon notes.”

Fear not, I’ve got you covered. In a situation like that, you want to find where the sound guy sits and watch him. If he’s doing yoga or pilates in order to warm up his arms in anticipation of the amount of times he’s going to press “Next” on powerpoint, buckle up. You are about to go on a fantastic voyage to the land of over pointing.

Has that ever happened to you?

Have you ever been over pointed?

What's the longest sermon you've experienced?

55 comments:

  1. I can't believe I am the first commenter! I am up way too early!

    Anyway, when I was a kid I attended a Mass led by Bishop Maguire, the bishop of the Diocese of Springfield, Massachusetts. It was the weekend after I made my First Communion, so I had insisted on wearing what I called my "wedding dress" -- i.e. my first communion gown, complete with the veil and white gloves.

    When Bishop Maguire finally processed down the aisle at the end of Mass, he kindly stopped to shake my hand and congratulate me on making my First Communion. When he asked how I had liked the Mass, I responded, "Well, it was way too long, but other than that, pretty good."

    It seems in retrospect that perhaps Bishop Maguire may have been an over-pointer.

    Thanks for a funny post, Jon. We've all been there!

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  2. Longest sermon ever experienced: 5.5 hours. I grew up in a charismatic church ('nuff said?).

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  3. Yes, the over pointer is so true. And I hate it! I feel like I'm taking a test or on trial trying to fill in every single blank that I'm not even paying attention. In short, I'm not a fan of not taking during sermons. I know it helps some, but not me.

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  4. My favorite opening line for a sermon is still, "Wow; this text is so powerful, I almost don't need to teach on it." That always signals it's going to be a long one.

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  5. As a trained and qualified preacher I try to limit myself to 100 points and no more than 50 "an in closings" but I can understand the layperson struggling to keep it down to those reasonable numbers. Just keep asking yourself "could I preach this to Jesus without getting an eye roll" aka CIPTTJWOGAER. You could even get bracelets made up and put in on bumper stickers and stuff, but I expect 5% of the royalties (quite generous of my I know)

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  6. Any sermon over five minutes loses me. Are you supposed to fill that sheet out? Me and my son usually fill them out with the funniest statements we can think of (like a madlib)....we have a contest. But if my wife catches doing she takes both of us out the back door by our ears...

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  7. I've never seen fill in the blank sermon notes before. Interesting.

    I do currently attend a church where the minister is very much in love with PowerPoint, though the church's laptop is the crankiest I've ever seen, so a sermon where everything comes up in the proper order is a rarity.

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  8. Let's not forget to use alliteration in your sermons folks. Every sermon point must begin with Q this week. Or I love to use words like PRAY and make each letter start a point in the sermon...variant alliteration. I am still working on my supercalifragilisticexpialidocious sermon...a will let you know what its done. Larry

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  9. Sometimes I've fallen into the trap of making the sermon with too many points. It usually goes like this:

    Sunday, I give a sermon, lots of points need to be followed up on.

    Monday, hear a sermon on the radio. It's awesome. I borrow an illustration.

    Tuesday, go to prayer meeting where I hear another amazing message. I have to borrow all his points, and somehow cram them into my message despite the fact they are on an entirely different topic.

    Wednesday through Saturday, all down hill from here.

    Sunday, give 247 point sermon, all of which will need follow up in next week's sermon.

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  10. My pastor no longer gives us note sheets with blanks to fill in. We just get a blank piece of paper with the sermon title at the top. I miss the blanks though, because various members of my family would fill them in during the worship time with what we thought would be the right answers. Then we'd see who got the title of "the Master of Spiritual Knowledge" by filling in the most blanks correctly! It was about the only thing I am the "master of" so I miss those days...

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  11. Well, my longest sermon was few weeks ago. I went to the North Point singles event and this guy was talking about dating less jerks. I stepped in there to see him fail miserably because it's date fewer jerks and if you can't get grammar correct in a title, how are you going to stand up in front a group of people and speak.

    :) :) :) :)

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  12. "...like the Apple of churches to me..." As in: expensive, lugging around a big chip on its shoulder, secretive, and overflowing with little style touches that scream "look at me right now, I'm so pretty"?

    Brought to you by one more anonymous jerk on the Internet.

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  13. I have little to say on this topic other than the fact that having a point "2B1" would have been wildly appropriate for the Singles sermon.

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  14. I was taught to preach no more than three points, on no more than one scripture passage, for no more than twenty-two minutes, no-more-no-less, because I'm mainline Protestant, you see, and we like to do things decently and in order, which has nothing at all to do, really, with getting out of church promptly at noon to beat the Evangelicals to the diner and still tune in to the football game on time.

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  15. I only had an overpointer in college. I literally had to write down everything, because he transitioned so smoothly between points nobody could tell we were moving on.

    As far as pastors go, in my former denomonation I believe it was an ordination requirement to keep sermons to three points( four if subpoints were in play).

    My favorites were the sermons where point one would last nearly an hour, and points 2 and 3 were covered in approximately 4.2 seconds tacked on to the end.

    wingnut

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  16. We use outlines in Sunday School for our Bible studies.

    I hate them. Our teacher gets flustered and he can't handle any deviation from it. Often, it doesn't even make sense to me because it's worded in King Jimmy while I use an ESV.

    I think it makes him lazy. He won't give us the reading in advance, though the curriculum is already written. He can't handle any deep questions on the material. He just stands there and repeats himself while I get glares from the other adults because they think it's MY fault because I asked a question.

    I don't think he'll ever give out outlines for his sermons. Since I started taking notes, I've noticed that he has 15-20 core verses that he quotes repeatedly to support any and all points.

    People there sit smugly and think they know a lot because they recognize most of the verses, but they're in complete denial about how much he repeats himself.

    Ugh. Bad Memories!

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  17. You forgot the over-pointed that starts each blank with the first letter of the word that belongs in said blank.

    Sometimes they can be downright disturbing.

    "You should always F___________ your neighbor"

    "Jesus said that he is the W_________ the T___________ and the L___________."

    Also, an over-pointer sometimes has trouble using words that everyone understands.

    It's typical for a pastor to try and make all of their 11 points start with the letter 'R' for some nice alliteration...but then you end up points like "Recompensorate, Residualocity, and Redonkulous".

    Sometimes they really have to stretch their brain-thesaurus to come up with a fiftieth word that starts with 'R'.

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  18. One time, our old pastor(a very staunch and old school British gentleman)preached a really long sermon, or maybe it wasn't that long and it just felt like it was because it was Easter Sunday. I do remember everyone in the sanctuary laughing hysterically as he refused to say "donkey" opting instead for the King James "a$$."

    It wasn't unusual to see someone on an a$$. Most people had at least one a$$...and on and on he went.

    Maybe if i was a more mature Christian I wouldn't have found it quite so funny, but I did catch the associate pastors stifling some giggles too.

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  19. My first sermon: 12 points. Made it through 3 before I ran out of time.

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  20. I once sat through a sermon that started at 7 PM and went until 2 in the morning...
    I was not happy.
    Don't remember what it was about either. Interestingly enough the speaker, rather than stopping the sermon, took up about 20 minutes every hour preaching about why people shouldn't sleep in church, and then went back to their original point.

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  21. My longest sermon
    Would be my mother-in-law's
    20 years counting
    http://www.ChristianHaiku.com
    (This is a joke. This is only a joke...:)

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  22. Just give me one point per sermon. That's all that's necessary.

    And any more, for me, a sermon is not all that necessary anyway. Given a choice between a twenty-minute sermon and twenty minutes of sacred, contemplative silence, I'll take the silence every time.

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  23. The shorter the sermon, the more content I actually retain.

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  24. I'm an Anglican, and we tend to get antsy at sermons that run over 15 or 20 minutes. Long sermons are not the Anglican way. My priest, however, grew up Southern Baptist and became an Anglican as an adult, so he's still trying to nail the 15 minute sermon thing. Generally he goes for about half an hour.

    We don't use fill-in-the-blank outlines or powerpoint, but I know the half-hour or more sermon is coming when I open the bulletin and see that the three scripture readings for the day are all entire chapters out of the Bible (we print whatever passages are going to be read that day, so visitors don't have to worry about bringing Bibles). Usually the passages are 10-15 verses long, but a couple of weeks ago I opened the bulletin and saw most of Isaiah 53, a Psalm that was at least 30 verses, and a chapter and a half of Matthew. When my priest started the sermon with, "Sorry about the really long readings today," I knew I was going to be there for a while.

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  25. When my then boyfriend (now husband) were looking for a church to attend in college we visited several different churches. We didn't like the mega churches that everyone went to so we were trying to find the ones that felt more like our hometown church. We went to one where the service felt like the longest service ever! And it wasn't because of overpointing it was because it was a commercial. I think it was probably 30 - 45 minutes long and he mentioned their Christmas program (I can't believe I forgot the name of it now!) something like 20 times during the sermon. It was awful. Needless to say, we did not go back!

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  26. The longest sermon I've experienced was at a wedding, not at a regular service. (Well, I did once attend a church that preached Revelation a verse at a time, and it took 2+ years...then they started in on Romans.) But the wedding sermon was done by two different people, the pastor and then someone else, too. The pastor's message was a bit long, and THEN the other guy started in on a 45-minute message (or longer, I either lost count or fell asleep; it gets fuzzy toward the end). All I wanted was to get out of there. I was happy for them, but I was starving and couldn't focus.

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  27. Christina E. in RaleighSeptember 17, 2009 at 8:34 AM

    I go to a small-ish charismatic church where we spend most of the time singing, listening to announcements, and other administrative tasks. Then the pastor flies through a 6-point presentation (that he didn't even write). And church still lasts from 10:30-1:00 most days.

    Here's something to think about, though: Why are pastors the only ones preaching? In Acts, the early church groups did not sit classroom-style listening to ONE man preach.

    There were supposed to be "apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors and teachers" ALL having a word, a teaching, a psalm, or something else to contribute.

    That's the way church (fellowship) should be.

    Get involved, help your brothers and sisters, and fellowship as the early Christians did.

    If we all do this, we will see a revolution in the Western churches.

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  28. PowerPoint!?? Guess I'm lucky, we don't have an over-pointer, and rarely ever see PowerPoint.

    p.s. Doesn't matter how many times you caveat, "less" is still wrong. ;)

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  29. The first time I attended my boyfriend's church, the pastor had planned a 12-step sermon (okay, he called them "points" but how could we not start calling them steps when there were 12?). He got to step six before he decided it was going too long, and he cut the sermon off in the middle and said he would finish the rest next week.

    True story. Apparently he was known for that kind of thing.

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  30. We also don't have an over-pointer. Powerpoint sometimes.

    Thanks for blog Jon :)

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  31. Chapel Speaker. 26 points. One for each letter of the alphabet. Painful.

    I'm a note-taker, but not a huge fan of outlines. I'd rather focus on what the sermon says to me than try to pick out the three words at rhyme and fit into the blanks. Especially when the pastor starts freestyling and forgets to mention the second word that begins with P and everyone is scrambling trying to figure out what the second word is while missing half of what is now being said. I like the title at the top and blank page format a lot better.

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  32. *Don't hate me Dad!*

    My father gave one of the longest sermons I've ever heard. When he was finished, I told him, "Daddy, David Koresh from Waco called to say you went too long. We have a problem."

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  33. Fortunately, our pastor keeps his sermons down to three points and an illustration. We live in Pittsburgh. You don't mess with Steeler sundays in any way, shape or form. Guaranteed people would get up and leave if his sermon notes were long...lol.

    On another note, my husband and I were talking about christian music from when we were teenagers. He mentioned he liked the christian rappers P.I.D. (short for "Preachers In Disguise", sounds awesome, right?). Immediately, I thought of you. I'm sure you've heard of P.I.D, right? If anyone besides my husband has heard of this group, it would have to be you. I mean, they ARE the founding father's of holyhiphop (according to this website: http://hhhdb.com/index.php?id=318 ) Anyway, if you somehow work P.I.D. into a post, my husband will be razzle dazzled.

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  34. I, personally, like long messages with lots of points, as long as it's solid expository teaching and not an hour of fluff 'n stuff. Gimme the meat.

    wv: trontie, n. a brief, pretty sermon with no substance; pointless, superficial e.g. With but a few minutes to fill, the pastor only thought up his tronties over his Sunday Starbucks.

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  35. Longest sermon...do podcasts count? Last night I listened to a Mark Driscoll podcast that was an hour and 36 minutes long.

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  36. a 2 hour sermon at a wedding. ridiculously brutal.

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  37. @Out on a Limb

    Not sure if they're REALLY the founders of holy hiphop, but they sure were a big part of it. I think the first Christian rap song was actually done by Steve Taylor. It was called Bad Rap(Who Ya Tryin' to Kid, Kid)and it is awesome like everything else he does.

    I love PID. The stuff that they put out was years ahead of its time as far as hip hop goes. I just wish i could find their CDs again - i lost all of my old school hiphop in a basement flood about 8 years ago.

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  38. I think I've managed to over-point in some of my talks. What can I say? There's too much information to get out! Does it help if I try to be interactive about it?

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  39. The longest sermon I have ever experienced was our associate pastor's first sermon, which coincided with my first vist to the church. It had only three points to it. However, it seemed as if he had about ten story illustrations for each point. He went with all ten illustrations for point #1, which took about 40 minutes. After five illustrations for point #2, the Lyle Lovett song, "Church" started playing in my head ("The Preacher, he kept preaching. He said now I'll remind you if I may. You all better pay attention or I might decide to preach all day"). By then, the speaker realized that he not only had run out of time, but had gone 20 minutes past time. The mixers were too polite to cut off the mike especially since there was no outstanding reason to do so, there being only one service. He thankfully wrapped up with point number three sans illustrations ("To the Lord, let the praises be. Its time for dinner now let's go eat..."). All the illustrations were entertaining and thought provoking. However, I have no idea what was the topic of the sermon, though I do remember him talking about a plumb line.
    He did much better in later sermons, realizing that there is such a thing as too many illustrations. I returned the next week because I was promised that the lead pastor was going to speak and I eventually decided to make it my home church.

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  40. I take issue with alliterative sermon points. A recent sermon at the church I attend was approximately 13 sermon points, all beginning with the same letter, naturally. And they weren't like easy, commonly used words that would make the sermon feel relevant and connect to our lives. No, this guy really had to stretch it to get 13 "E" words. Sometimes, alliteration is NOT an easy way to remember the point(s).

    As an English teacher, I knew the meanings of the words. But also as a teacher, I knew that some of those words were flying over the heads of the congregation. I can't remember them all...which is exactly the problem. Some I DO recall were: Encroach, Equivocal, Efficacy, Erudite, Emblematic, Emphatic, Emulate, Enumerate, Exponential.

    The next week we had 16 "S" words. There was only one "S" word that I could think of when I saw that sermon outline.

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  41. #Emily...lol Fiddlesticks does not begin with an "s"

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  42. Jon, loved this post! Too funny!

    Thomas, yeah those fill-in-the-blank with first letter provided can get dangerous! "Jesus tells us to F____ our neighbors"? Oh my goodness it took me a minute to think what the appropriate word is! Lol yikes! Ha ha.

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  43. As an overachiever with OCD, the "fill in the blank" sermon outlines stress me out. I spend so much time trying to figure out which word goes in which blank that I often miss the point. And don't even think about forgetting to tell us what is supposed to go in one of the blanks... it will not end well!

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  44. We attend a church with a blank bulletin page for sermon notes, so our daughters have learned to outline the basic points from the sermon. A year ago, my daughter went to a friend's church service with the fill-in-the-blank forms and she grew quite flustered when the pastor didn't follow his own points and she ended up with blank blanks.

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  45. Equally as annoying as trying to figure out what goes in the blank is the idiot-proof PowerPoint slide that stays up forever. "Jesus tells us to forgive our neighbor"

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  46. Fill-in-the-blank sermon notes are ridiculous. For the love, just preach with good theology, doctrine and good tuning to Scripture. This isn't a business presentation. It's not a 1st grade school worksheet. Stop the spoon-feeding.

    And, sweet mercy, take down that ridiculous powerpoint and screen. I'm not 5. Minutia strangles a listener.

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  47. I also am Anglican, tho currently attending a Lutheran church. I choose a liturgical church ON PURPOSE because it gives structure & puts limits to the service.

    I grew up in an independent Baptist church that was not very healthy & the minister had a HUGE ego & would go on for 1-1/2 hours or more with his sermon. And his whole attitude was "Let's get this other stuff (announcements, singing, etc.) out of the way so you can listen to what I have to say." I decided then that if he couldn't make his point in 15-20 minutes, i didn't want to hear it.

    Liturgical services seem to me to be more balanced as they have multiple parts to them. Of course, ego can still play out. Our current pastor has had the tendency to interrupt liturgy to give history lessons about why we do what we do. I think that is fine for a Bible study, but NOT the service. I know that much of the reason he does this is because he is excited about our history & the meaning behind hymns & the liturgy & the different words in the scripture readings. But it interrupts worship & again gives the impression that "what I have to say is important!"

    I like a service that is more balanced & not focused on a person's ideas or opinions but on the Word of God.

    While not the longest sermon ever given, the homily at our (Anglican) wedding was much longer than the priest had indicated it would be. It made the wedding last rather late & my (almost) husband & i had to stand thru the whole thing.

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  48. I once heard a women's Bible study about holiness and how hard it is, that went on for 2 hrs and 20 min.
    People were leaving "to go to the bathroom", if you know what I mean...

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  49. @Steph - dang, that is brutal.
    I once heard an hour-long sermon at a wedding, and the topic was Gomer the prostitute wife of Hosea...
    The point about the Lord's faithfulness was nice, but I'm sure the father of the bride wasn't too happy!

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  50. The worst over pointers I've seen are people giving communion & tithe/offering messages. In our church 1scripture 1 illustration/story is recommended along with a 3-5 min allotted time. When u see someone rock up to the pulpit and unfold their 4 or more a4 tightly spaced typed pages of notes and 3 different Bible versions (because you know if you own a NKJV AND an AMP AND a Msg translation you are almost assured a seat at the right hand of the Father,) you know you'd better hunker down for an epic journey of revelation. Most preachers manage to keep it under 45mins but we had a pharoah message that went over an hour recently. You could almost hear God saying "let My people go".

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  51. 3 hour sermon.

    In a foreign language.

    The translators gave up after the first hour.

    I doodled quite a bit

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  52. The pastor of the church I attended in college (a charismatic church) wasn't an overpointer, but he did something even worse. In addition to the sermon (which was always at least half an hour long) he treated us to what my friends and I called "the offering sermon." That is, every week before the offering, he gave a little talk on stewardship. That's right. A stewardship sermon every week, in addition to the regular sermon.

    That was also the church at which I experienced the longest sermon ever. It was given by a guest speaker a volunteer appreciation dinner. Since I didn't have a spouse to bring I invited my roommate, figuring she'd appreciate the free dinner.... an hour and a half into the sermon, the free dinner was but a faint memory. I think it had something like 30 points, with multiple illustrations for each. That was a Saturday night and I almost didn't come on Sunday because the same guest was preaching in worship. I had to stop myself from standing up and shouting "Hallelujah!" (which would have been out of place at that point even at a charismatic church :) when he announced that the Holy Spirit had told him to ditch his notes on preach on something entirely different. His Spirit-inspired message was only twenty minutes long. I guess the Spirit took pity on the rest of the congregation :).

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  53. Longest sermon I've ever experienced was at Capitol Hill Baptist church in DC on the sunday before 4'th of july in 2006. There was a british guy speaking and he started on one parable and went through about 2 chapters for about 2 hours or so. He was a good speaker but after about an hour or so i had a really hard time paying attention. :P

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  54. Over pointing is huge challenge for me. After I get my sermon put together, I take it to the editing floor. By time I am done sometimes over half of the teaching has been removed.

    When this happens, sometimes I just break it up into two sermons and preach what was on the floor next week.

    I have to continually remind myself that God's people have not studied with me during the week as I prepare and so many of them don't know all the cool nuances that I have discovered.

    So I can't pack all my stuff in without overwhelming them.

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  55. I go to a Christian school, which makes it all the more fun for these really long sermons.

    The record for most points goes to the co-founder (of LU) Elmer Towns, with 84 points, each with subpoints.

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