"The Shack will change the way you think about God forever." – Kathy Lee Gifford, Co-Host of NBC's Today Show
If you know me at all, you know that when Kathy Lee Gifford speaks, I listen. So when I saw KPG, something we fans call her, gave the Shack a shout out, I decided to read it.
Actually, I decided to read it because I wanted the remix to be different than the original post I wrote on the Shack, a Christian novel that has become one of the best selling books in the United States.
But I initially didn't want to read it for a few reasons:
1. I tend to stay away from massively popular books, music, etc.
2. A handful of people I like and respect disliked it.
3. Other people I know aggressively promised me it would "change my life."
4. I was jealous of the success the author, William P. Young, was experiencing.
Those reasons don't make me look particularly good and are mostly prideful, shallow excuses not to engage in something. So I got over them and picked up the book.
What is about to follow is not a book review. Bloggers like Tim Challies have already written great reviews with more depth and analysis than I am capable of. This is not a detailed theological study into the author's handling of the Trinity or anything else. While I hold such discussions as dear, that's honestly not my strength or the purpose of this site. And lastly, this is not about the author, who my friends at North Point say is a pretty amazing guy. I don't know him and to focus this strictly on him would be fake.
Despite revealing a few plot spoilers, this is going to be a look at the ripples this book has caused. The reactions the Christian community has had and the impact the work has made on the culture of our faith. They are not difficult to find. They fill up Amazon reviews and I got some good, honest comments on this subject the first time I wrote about it. But that's enough introduction.
Here are some questions or statements people are raising about the book, "The Shack."
1. It was written for his kids and published in his garage.
Sometimes, hardcore fans of the Shack will defend it by saying, "Don't get all bent out of shape, this is a book he wrote for his kids." And that's true. Young has said often that he wrote this book for his kids. But upon realizing the power and potential of it, he enlisted two other men to help craft the version that was published. And he's really upfront about that. On page two of the book it clearly states, "A novel by William P. Young in collaboration with Wayne Jacobsen and Brad Cummings." In the back of the book Young further states, "His (Wayne's) enthusiasm brought in the others to refine the story and to prepare it to share with a wider audience, both in print and we hope in film. He and Brad bore the lion's share of work in the three major rewrites that brought this story to its final form,…" I think that is awesome. I have been touched by this book and would not have experienced that if Young and his team did not dedicate more than a year to create what I experienced. I think when we amplify the origin of the book, by pretending that we have secretly found something one person wrote for their children we can sort of insult the deliberate skill applied to creating this novel by a team of experts.
2. "Jesus says 'True Dat' in the book."
I wish. This is a common misconception about "the Shack". I did some careful research and I think this urban legend originated because on page 119 of the paperback version, the God character says, "Sho 'nuff!" But when you go back and study the book, you'll realize that that on page 110 the Jesus character actually says, "True, that," and not "True Dat." I was hoping he did, because that would have felt a little hip hop to me and I think hip hop needs all the love it can get considering what is going to happen this fall. What's happening? My mid-50s minister father is taking hip hop dance lessons. I am torn between thinking, "Hooray! I hope when I am that age I still do new stuff" and agreeing with the rapper Nas, "Hip hop is dead."
3. "Stop analyzing it. It's a work of fiction."
When people disagree with the theology of the book or the way God is represented, readers often respond by reminding you it's just a work of fiction. Again, that's true. The challenge though is that so were the parables. And if you tried to tell someone how much you loved the prodigal son story and they replied, "Why are you analyzing it, it's just fiction?" that would be really frustrating. We, as a culture, are constantly pulling truth and wisdom and knowledge from things that are fictional. Facing the Giants was a fictional movie but lots of people found truth and encouragement in that for instance. And clearly there's a difference between Young writing a fictional novel and Jesus telling a parable, but that's not the point. The point is that labeling something as fictional does not automatically mean that we should accept or reject the very non fictional ideas within it. Young's characters wrestle with real things and just because they are done within the context of a novel does not mean we can't approach them with care and consideration.
4. God is portrayed an African American Woman.
That's true and I will admit, some of the folksy language that the God character used in this book threw me at times. Hearing her say things like, "Child, you ain't heard nuthin' yet" felt foreign to me. And sometimes the "she-ism" of the whole thing felt a little forced to get a rise out of the reader, like on page 177 when the main character remarks, "So I guess all I can do is follow her." Young could have easily said, "follow God" in that situation but maybe it would not have had the same impact. But I didn't have a huge problem with Young portraying God as a woman and here's why - I do the same thing in my heart sometimes, only in a very different way. At times, I have made God an angry tyrant, out for my destruction and waiting for me to fail so He can punish me and shame me. I have twisted His nature of love with brutal clarity into a nature of judgment so many times. So instead of responding to Young's interpretation, I was forced to look at how I often have written God in my own heart. And although what I found was gross, Young's version inspired me to think on my own and for that I am extremely grateful.
5. The book is emotionally manipulative.
I think "manipulative" is a strong word and doesn't reflect the heart of the authors, who appear to be genuine and compassionate in their desire to share this book. I will say however, that the book is "emotionally deliberate." In choosing the death of a little girl as the framework for the story, the authors choose the most emotional situation known to mankind. And they admit as much in the context of the story on page 59, "Something in the heart of most human beings simply cannot abide pain inflicted on the innocent, especially children … Even in such a world of relative morality, causing harm to a child is still considered absolutely wrong. Period!" If instead of Missy, the adorable 6 year old, Young had told a tale of his 42-year old brother getting murdered the impact would not have been the same. The book would not have touched, "the heart of most human beings." But I applaud Young for that decision. He wanted the most people possible to connect with this book so he chose the most powerful example. And that's not unusual. If in the movie, "The Sixth Sense," the main character had been a 38 year old dentist instead of the little boy that could see dead people, would you have liked the movie as much? I too understand the need to emotionally engage people. When I wrote about how I would like to start a charity I didn't just say, "I should start a charity." I started the post by saying that my four year old daughter thought a picture of a starving African child was pretend. I wasn't trying to manipulate you. I was trying to engage you.
6. I don't like one section, therefore the whole book stinks.
There are sections of the book I disagree with. Things that are different than what I believe or choices that are made that I might not make. But I struggle with the idea that because I don't agree with certain pages or certain ideas, I must discount the entire book. The reason is that nowhere else in my life is that approach true. When I write about having my faith encouraged by a Pearl Jam lyric I am doing the very opposite. I am pulling one line out of a song and ignoring everything else about the band Pearl Jam that does not point me toward God. When I sense the story of Jesus in the movie Man on Fire, I am ignoring the violence and torture that dominate most of the film. When I celebrate the sunset as a sign of God's love, I ignore the devastation and heartache of a hurricane. I am not sure I am right or wrong on this idea, but it is something I was forced to think about when I read the Shack.
7. The book gives the elbow of death to seminaries and churches and WWJD.
The book does talk about the institutions and processes and systems we have tried to build up around our faith. The main character comments about his seminary and does question the church's approach to tradition and rules. But so do I to a degree. I don't think the book means to criticize the many people that have benefited from seminary or the beautiful things the body of Christ, as the church, can do. I think it means to tear down the negative stuff we've associated with God that might be of God. I will say that if I ever write about the whole What Would Jesus Do movement and get criticized, my first response is going to be, "Whoa, it's not like I shacked it." On page 149, the main character sarcastically says to the Jesus character, "You mean that I can't just ask, 'What Would Jesus Do'?" The Jesus character chuckles, "Good intentions, bad idea. Let me know how it works out for you, if that's the way you choose to go." Clearly that's just a section of a much larger conversation that you should read on your own but I did verbally say, "Dang, Jesus just leg dropped those bracelets" when I read it the first time. (And it's not that Young is slamming traditional religion so that he can say all roads lead to Jesus. On page 182, when the Jesus character is asked that direct question, he replies, "Not at all.")
This is so much longer than I anticipated but I felt like the subject deserved some thought. And I won't try to stand in the middle on the book. I liked the Shack. I felt like it really challenged how I view my relationship with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There are some really beautiful parts that were encouraging and crushing and uplifting and a million other things. I rarely read books again but this is one that I will.
That's what I think about the ripples and conversations the Shack has helped start. And I hope we can have a new one here on this site as we wrestle with this book.
I am also one of those people who avoids things that are massively popular, so I haven't read The Shack, but I'm looking to some, er, lively discussion.
ReplyDelete(Of course, now that I've said it, the comments will progress like an afternoon tea.)
it tends to worry me when people are looking to works of fiction to challenge their view of God rather than the bible. It has the potential to be very spiritually dangerous
ReplyDeleteI felt slightly let down by The Shack.
ReplyDeleteThe beginning of the book has a good premise and a great build up, right up to meeting God.
I found the African-English written pronunciations distracting and difficult to read at some times.
The African woman character in particular I found to be a stereotypical, non-stereotypical God character. Like the author was shouting out "Ha look what I did there- God is not limited to a mans body!" Ugh, style over substance.
I didn't feel like this one brought home the bacon in terms of the suffering question. Although they touched on weighty theological subjects during conversations, I didn't feel like they really came up with an adequate answer or explanation. It was, to coin a phrase, far too touchy-feely.
I know God is the creator of both man and woman. I know God has all the attributes of both sexes, however this God only displayed feminine qualities, the Jesus character was not the character I have read in the new testament. I would think God relates to women as a woman and to men as a man - the author seemed more concerned with paradigms than with the heart of the story.
I did like the discussion on human institutions, but I didn't take that to be a discussion of the church- I took that to be the wider world in general - laws, countries, legal systems- all mans invention.
Sorry for the long review, I only intentioned to comment on a couple of themes!
I would have to disagree with Joanna. To limit God's revelation of Himself to the Bible runs the risk of idolizing the Bible, and denies the reality that God reveals Himself through all of creation. Creativity is a gift from God, and who are we to limit how and where He chooses to reveal Himself.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I though The Shack painted a picture of God that makes us really think. I don't agree with everything Young writes, but it did cause me to think about the God that I serve in new ways! And that can never be bad.
I agree with Joanna. Its great to have a work of fiction to read, but when it comes to the ways of God and what you believe, the Bible is the ultimate truth. I liked the concept of the shack, but honestly some of it was just boring. And, I didn't like that Young "spoke" for Jesus on certain issues. I think there were certain things with authority and submission that directed contradicted the Bible. Anyway, if it brings people closer to Jesus then that is always great.
ReplyDeleteWorks of fiction have been written throughout the centuries to describe views of and approaches to God. Authors express their thoughts in many different ways.
ReplyDeleteI've read "The Shack" twice - the second time with an eye to trying to understand how he ticked off so many Christians.
For me, the usage of 'it's a work of fiction,' allows me to say that it's plainly not the Bible and he has used certain props and ploys to tell the story that he had roiling around his mind. The fact that he presented God as a southern black woman stopped many of us in our tracks and caused me to consider God a little bit differently and ... simply smile.
But, the main point of the book was the relationship that Mack had with God. Not the image of God or the institutions or even the loss of his daughter.
And I see that's the main point of creation, scripture, everything that God has placed in front of us. The relationship between Him and us ... no matter how we might envision it.
theological education is already in a sad state in most churches, and an Evangelical that would encourage the reading of this book is asking for deeply troubling Trinitarian heresies to take root... so that if the reader of the book ever DOES begin to get into theological thought/discussion about the Trinity, they will have some unfortunate baggage picked up at The Shack...
ReplyDeleteso the question for me is, does this book's emotional/relational meaning outweigh the theological troubles?
I won't lie, it completely revolutionized the way I feel about God.
ReplyDeleteI really don't care what other people might say in disagreement. It's between me and God.
Good question. I think we have to look at the Shack and see how far off it is theologically. Other works of fiction in the past (Milton's Paradise Lost) are a little off theologically but they stay true to the nature of Christ and the subject of salvation. The Shack is a work of fiction but it does promote itself (whether intentionally or not) out there as a "new" revelation of who God is which is disturbing. It walks a very fine line in saying that all roads lead to God which completely contradicts John 14:6. In a culture where many people believe all religions are the same, the Shack muddies the water even more. If I'm going to allow a book to "change the way I see God" I'm gonna sure as heck make sure that it lines up with the Bible on the basics of Christianity. Now I'm not saying that film or work of art can't speak to you about some spiritual truth about our Savior. But to use the language "change my view of God" is a little strong to me when your talking about a book that is very theologically different from what the Bible says. Should you read it? That's between you and God. But I would definitely say have your radar tuned so you can see the biblical inaccuracies of the book.
ReplyDeleteI'm too cheap to buy books. So I have it on reserve at my local library, and I am #13 on the waiting list. It may be awhile, but I am looking forward to reading it!
ReplyDelete(And I, too, tend to stay away from "popular" Christian culture stuff. For instance, I still haven't read "The Purpose Driven Life" or seen "The Passion of the Christ." Still, this one has piqued my curiosity!)
David -
ReplyDeleteI love that you raised the question:
"so the question for me is, does this book's emotional/relational meaning outweigh the theological troubles?"
I don't have the answer but I thought that was a really interesting way to frame it.
Jon
Admittedly, I haven't read the book but I think with all things in this world, whether Pearl Jam or Creation itself, what matters most is what we do with it. If this book becomes your view of God that's not good but if it encourages/inspires you to dig into God's word and deepen your relationship with Him then that's great. "The Shack" can't stand on its own but it can certainly point people in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteHey PJ – I mostly loved The Shack but, really disliked a lot of it too. From the start, in the opening icy scene, I could not get the song California Dreamin’ out of my head given the character’s name is Mackenzie Phillips (unforgivable choice of names) – later, the song changed to One Day at a Time. The goofy dialogue was painfully distracting from some of the beautiful concepts being illustrated. Young has several technical issues throughout, too – the most egregious, for we squirrel lovers, was his depiction of them as nocturnal, marauding invaders - however, there were worse offenses for the general public. I was totally digging the part about fractals and was all set to recommend the book to all the Mathletes in the family until (I thought) Young’s Jesus was saying one does not need to become a Christian – he will travel down any road to find you. Although you quoted the part about not all roads leading to Jesus, my reading (I will re-read it tonight) left me with the belief that this is another writer selling the Christianity isn’t necessarily necessary concept – God saves good Hindus, good pagans, good Muslims, etc. While I hope that concept is exactly true, I don’t think it is biblical. I agree Jesus has traveled down every foreboding road to find some of us – but, He wants us to enter through the narrow gate of Christianity. I hope my comprehension of that scene is erroneous, because that is the reason I have not recommend The Shack to anyone. Anyway, if good people of all faiths receive salvation based on moral law, I think I’ll jump on Buddhism because it doesn’t hold the painful memories Christianity does and may be more of a social plus for my children. (I wonder if the domain name Stuffbuddhistlike.net has been registered yet?) What really confused me was how an author who I thought was obviously inspired could also throw so much whack smack.
ReplyDeleteFirst, to quote Jon: "But I didn't have a huge problem with Young portraying God as a woman and here's why – I have portrayed God as someone much worse."
ReplyDeleteThis statement isn't to imply that portraying God as a woman is bad, right? Just that you've portrayed God in actually bad ways, while the Shack portrays God as a woman, which is just, well, Biblical. (I'll be happy to quote references if necessary)
To Augustino: I tend to be inclusivist in my beliefs, so I do believe that good Buddhists, etc, will probably be in heaven (whatever that means). And I believe the Bible teaches that there will be people in heaven who don't recognize Jesus. I do believe the Bible is clear that Jesus is the best and only way; I don't believe the Bible teaches that a certain intellectual assent to the name of Jesus Christ according to some formula is the only way. C.S. Lewis had this one in the bag when he pointed out that we just don't know what God has worked out for those who have never heard of Jesus.
"But I didn't have a huge problem with Young portraying God as a woman and here's why – I have portrayed God as someone much worse."
ReplyDeleteYou mean there are worse things than a black woman? Don't you know that God encompasses both male and female qualities?
Here's a pretty insightful link regarding how those who have benefitted from the book shouldn't be confronted harshly regarding skewed theology, for it might further hurt their view of Christians or God
ReplyDeletehttp://www.crosswalk.com/spirituallife/11578109/page1/
I've heard good and bad things about the book.
ReplyDeleteMy mother just bought it for me as a gift, hoping it would be a good discussion starter for me and others.
I'm excited to give it a read and see for myself what it has to say.
Jon,
ReplyDelete***KA-BOOM!***
Warning: "In-coming" Literary A-Bomb Alerts Coming Your Way
~Currently embracing the 'SCL Xian Literary Debate Experience'...
However, must with-hold my literary 'cluster-bombs' & 'daisy cutters' 'til I've read & digested "The Shack" all on my own.
*Once you've crawled out from under the 'radiation cloud' & 'fall-out of "mega-mode" posts'...
*Try one about
[Why We're Not Emeregent: By Two Guys Who Should Be] (DeYoung & Kluck).
~It's 'liable to "Change Your Life", Jon or "change your Blog". =/
campman62.wordpress.com
inthelight-campman62.blogspot.com
Call me a theological nerd if you want... but you are on shaky ground anytime you illustrate one of the most central tenets of the Christian faith (the Trinity) using a metaphor. Because all metaphors eventually fall apart. The Water/Ice/Vapor deal falls apart, because God the Son and God the Father and God the Spirit are more distinct in their persons than Ice is distinct from water. It's not a change of state between the two of them. God the Son is eternally God the Son, He never 'melts' to become God the Spirit.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, this stuff is important. Cults start with a wrong view of the Trinity.
All of that to say, while I agree that God reveals much about himself outside of the Bible, what he reveals about himself in the Bible is the most clear and important part. And anything outside of the Bible that contradicts something in the Bible should be discarded, even if it is "just fiction." God the Father does not have a physical body. (male or female) and so to show Him as an African American female is blasphemy. Likewise with the Holy Spirit.
Last thing (I promise...) is that God refers to HIMself in the Bible as a HE, not a SHE. God makes the rules on what He is to be called, just as I make the rules as to what names are acceptable for my son to call me. He can't call me 'bro' or 'dude' unless I OK it. To a much greater degree God establishes the names (and even gender-specific pronouns) that I can use to refer to Him. And "She" and "Her" are not on the list. And to say "that's just a product of the culture of when the Bible was written" becomes a strange and slippery slope to not being able to trust anything in the Bible (and is another discussion for another absurdly long comment). So I'll just take it at face value.
Wow. Just finished reading all the comments so far and they've been interesting. I don't always read a book just because of popularity either, but I may read it now. I would like to see what my impressions would be.
ReplyDeleteBTW- I'm a woman and I wasn't offended by your comment about God being portrayed as a black woman. I, too, have portrayed God much worse before. I don't think (as some of the commenters seem to) that you meant being a woman or being black is bad. I know God isn't male or female, but I still see Him as male. He is our Father and our Provider and our Protector and so many things that are usually the male's role in a family. I guess I don't make a good feminist. Haha.
I absolutely loved The Shack! It left me laughing, crying, and at times scratching my head. Admittedly, I had to read and re-read several parts, thinking to myself, "Did I read what I just think I read?" Overall, I feel the writer really captured the essence of God's love for us and for His Son and the Holy Spirit. I finished the book with a renewed passion to love God and to love others with that same kind of love.
ReplyDeleteIn the book's defense, is not God a spirit, and therefore encapsulates characteristics of both man and woman? He is neither, and yet He is both. I thought the character of God, both the African-American woman and the father-type man, were accurate pictures of God's love and care for us.
Furthermore, when Jesus expressed that He will go down any path to find someone, He didn't mean that He would leave them on this same path. (At least that is how I interpreted the text.) He will meet anyone at any point in their walk of life. At this meeting place, then it is our decision to follow Him. Jesus (the Jesus character in this book) was very clear that you can only enter relationship with God through Him, no other way--not through social status, not through choice of profession, and most certainly not through any other god.
I totally agree that we must ultimately find our guidance, and furthermore our inspiration, through God's Holy Word, and most certainly not through a fictional book. However, one important question remains...
Which translation of God's Word is the holiest? :-)
Just food for thought.
I live outside of the USA so I read it late very in the game (recently) NOT KNOWING it was massively popular or massively controversial.
ReplyDeleteI disliked God making pancakes ... both because I hate pancakes - and I don't think God should make them ... He should have people for that.
BUT -- I will say that I know for a fact that God can use this book for good -- even if uptight folks are up in arms about it ---
I know (very well) someone that was raped by three men as a little girl -- and that person and her Mom both found the explanations (in this book) of "Where is God when horrible evil happens" to be both helpful and healing to them ... so if it does that for someone who has faced true evil, then it cannot be *all* bad ... theologically sound or not.
Call it dangerous if you must --- worry if you want ... but for those who have faced the same horrific and personal sort of evil as the main character (of this work of fiction) it has been helpful ... so your "dangerous" is someone else's HEALING.
I think there are plenty of things to be ticked off about -- but this book is not one of them.
Additionally, I have respectfully disagree with lamo. specifically this quote:
ReplyDelete"I don't agree with everything Young writes, but it did cause me to think about the God that I serve in new ways! And that can never be bad."
The book of mor(m)on (note middle finger of grammar, among other grammatical slams) can make you think about God in new ways that are definitely bad. Same goes for many other faddish pop-religious books (the Secret comes to mind).
It is not bad to think in new ways, it is bad to think in unbiblical ways. You have to reject some things. New does not equal valid or beneficial. In fact, new almost always is a bad thing in Christian theology. If I come up with something that Paul, Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Packer and Piper all missed, I'd say its probably heretical. Just a thought.
In compliment of point 6, one of my favorite sayings is, "Even an old cow knows how to spit out a stick." If there were something you didn't like or agree with in The Shack, let it go, and accept what is true. As truth seekers, Christians should live with that attitude.
ReplyDeleteIf the only book you read to base your theology on was The Shack, then you would have a problem. However, if you are like most people and read a variety of things, then the questionable theology is not going to be a big deal. I've read the book and enjoyed it. The book challenged me to let God out of the box. I'm constantly striving to see God as bigger than is comfortable to me, so I enjoyed the book. Do I agree that God is a black woman - no - but I shouldn't see Him as a white man either. He's much bigger than that.
Elaine -
ReplyDeleteThanks for your thoughts and the willingness to share them in a way that is not anonymous.
I meant that who I have often made God is different, in a bad way, from who Young represented God as. The point, that I did not do a great job explaining in the sentence you asked about, was not about what Young did, but what I do/did in my own life.
I think there has been a healthy amount of analysis about Young's characterization by many other people and I was instead trying to approach it from the angle of "who do I make God out to be in my own life?"
Jon
I read The Shack with the expectation that it would leave me sobbing and in the fetal position in the corner of my bedroom. My pastor read it and it wrecked him. He experienced what I started calling "The Shack Attack".
ReplyDeleteWhile I wasn't wrecked by it, I did really enjoy this book. Young's word images are beautiful and poetic; his imagination is fantastic.
The Shack is next on my small group's list to read and discuss together. I'm really looking forward to it.
Elaine -
ReplyDeleteLast time I'll chime in because the post is really long and I have already hogged the mic.
I just went back and tweaked the line about God as a woman because I don't think the point I was trying to make was very well made. Thanks for helping me see the murkiness of what I originally wrote. I value reader input and feel that my intent is more accurately expressed in the post because of your question
Jon
I just purchased The Shack last night and I am halfway through the book. I love it. Who wouldn't want an invitation from God? Besides, Mack asks some of the same questions that have swirled around in my own head. Oh, I know it's just a book but, I have to finish reading...
ReplyDeleteYou lost me at Kathie Lee Gifford.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting discussion so far. For me, as a reformed self-help book addict, I too tend to shy away from outrageously popular books (or, well, outrageously popular anything actually). I purposefully ignored the whole Left Behind series until they were on about book #9 and a friend said she thought I'd really enjoy it so I finally did. (And I did enjoy it, but I don't base my whole theology on it.)
ReplyDeleteI guess I'll have to break down and read The Shack, if only because I need to be informed. I definitely agree with many who commented saying that we must remember that stories can help us re-think how we look at God, or challenge us. But that all our theology should be held up to the Bible.
I have benefited from many stories about God. But I get into serious trouble when I start thinking that any author's story *about* God is equivalent to a revelation *from* God.
don't be jealous of her success. You could make stuff Christians like into a book I'm sure.
ReplyDelete.. i'm copyrighting this idea. right now. :D
When reading reviews about The Shack someone wrote, "God created us in His image, and we have been trying to return the favor ever since."
ReplyDeleteThis stuck out to me the most about this book. Anytime you try to create your own image of God (like Young did in this book), you are limiting him and placing a human view of God on him. It's dangerous.
You may think that this book changes the way you view God, but is it the view God would want you to have of Him or is it someone else's human view? I think I will stick to what scripture says.
Also, why should I take the parts of this book that I like and disregard the rest? I would never do that to the Bible. If you are going to write a fictional account of a meeting with God, don't you owe it to God to get it right? What about people who are seeking or new believers? They have no way of knowing that this book is off based.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to post such a long post, but it's upsetting to me that people would say that a work of fiction was life changing. Isn't the Bible enough for that? Shouldn't we all be this passionate about reading the His word?
Our church book club has been going through some controversial books this summer, taking them apart, seeing what's biblical and what's not, and The Shack was last month's book. I was out of town a lot, so I didn't get to read it or participate in the dicussions, so I'm still in the dark. What I do know is that a lot of Christians are attacking each other because they somehow think they have the right to tell other adults what they should and should not read. I hope it's okay with all of you, but I'm planning to read it because I don't want to sound like one of those arrogant people who condemn books without reading them, using excuses like, "A doctor doesn't have to have cancer to be able to diagnose it." No, but he has to be educated in the field of oncology. He has to be able to find specific cancer cells in a blood sample. He can't find those cells if he doesn't know what they look like, and he can't figure out what they look like unless he actually engages with them. Likewise, I can't condemn a book as heretical if I've never read it because I have no first-hand account of what those (allegedly) heretical scenes look like. I can't base my opinion on the hearsay floating around my congregation because, let's be honest: We don't all think the same way, and what I might find to be garbage may be my best friend's favorite book (Velvet Elvis). When someone thinks something is bad, they find ways to spin it so that it sounds even worse. We come from a media-saturated culture. Therefore, we love sensationalism; we love exaggeration. I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I don't trust the opinions of most Christians because, in my experience, they lie all the time to make their opinions sound like the "right" way of thinking. I think Jesus wants us to be thinkers, not sheeple.
ReplyDeleteBen, there's nothing Christian about giving "the middle finger" to the people of another religion. Jesus and his followers reached out to Gentiles, people of a different religious background than themselves. I don't think He advocates flipping people off or calling them morons just because they are misguided. Also, you might remember that Jesus Himself was tried for heresy, and Paul was imprisoned and beheaded for being a heretic. Christianity itself was looked upon as a cult in the beginning. You can't decide how God sees things and how He works. I don't see how it's any more blasphemous to depict God as a black woman than it is to depict him as an oversized lion, but the Narnia movies seem to be selling like hotcakes...
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ReplyDeleteI think it's important to note something Miss Hannah said:
ReplyDelete"I don't see how it's any more blasphemous to depict God as a black woman than it is to depict him as an oversized lion, but the Narnia movies seem to be selling like hotcakes..."
It says in Revelation 5:5: "Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Christ is described as the Lion of the tribe of Judah in the Bible. I think IT IS a bit more blasphemous to depict God the Father as a black woman because THAT cannot be found anywhere in the bible.
anonymous at 9:45 am ...
ReplyDeleteit is upsetting that something other than the Bible is "life changing" ??? - I don't think I understand what is upsetting about that ...
God uses total creativity in drawing people to Him - the Bible *is* the best source of truth and answers, but it is CERTAINLY NOT the ONLY way God draws people ... he uses:
other (even really screwed up) people, he uses music, he uses literature and poetry, he uses nature, he uses multiple things.
I have not read the book - only several excerpts/reviews (both for and against) so it is hard for me to comment obviously.
ReplyDeleteHowever, clearly the author's view of God DOES not actually help anyone see God in a different way as long as the Trinity is portrayed that way.
Not to mention if he is affirming an "all roads" lead to Jesus.
However, this book (to some extent) yet again reveals that many Christians have no problem with a book that defies Biblical truths (and Major ones at that)as long as there are 'good results' (seemingly).
In short - many christians hold to an "end justifies the means" worldview. Except the fact that any means not in line with the Word actually has no "positive end" for anyone.
While I concur that I too have had as bad or worse pictures of God - that is irrelevant in the sense that I nor anyone's view is the standard.
These issues are huge - we're not talking about if Jack Baur's dad is the anti-christ or some eschatalogical debate.
This is about the very nature and truth of who God is and the Salvation He has secured for us.
Wow! All I can say is wow after reading all those comments. Nothing rankles your "shackles" like mentioning "that book". BTW, I LOVE the phrase "shacked it", and also whoever shared the shack attack. I read it. It was allright. It did NOT revolutionize the way I think about God in any way. Yeah, I got stuck on the pancake-making God thing for a bit, (course I sit on my hands when singing and hold them up on the inside). I have given it to 2 friends so far...one hated it, the other loved it...whatever. I may read it again just to see what I am missing about it being so dang good. Personally, I resent hype of any kind about books, movies, music, etc. I have been in churches that have split over such things...I "could" almost hear God saying "Sho' nuff, I am coming down to leg drop you" Bee
ReplyDeleteJohn Stackhouse, a professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver, has a good series of posts on The Shack on his blog. He first defends the genre - the style of "ideological fiction." He then has two posts in which he discusses theological problems he has with the book, and finishes with a post in praise of what the book does well:
ReplyDeletehttp://stackblog.wordpress.com/2008/06/07/the-shack-3-some-celebrations/
"First, The Shack brings us pictures of the triune God that seem to me to convey a great deal of Biblical truth. Like any picture, they are partial. But they convey God’s love, God’s goodness, God’s patience, God’s forgiveness, God’s seriousness, God’s pragmatism, God’s industry, God’s understanding, God’s humour, and God’s creativity, among other divine virtues. The Shack also helps us see those qualities come out in the three members of the Trinity."
"Now, that’s a lot to convey (!), and to do so in good proportion and combination is a remarkable achievement and a significant gift."
troy & tara livesay :
ReplyDelete"it is upsetting that something other than the Bible is "life changing" ??? - I don't think I understand what is upsetting about that ...
God uses total creativity in drawing people to Him - the Bible *is* the best source of truth and answers, but it is CERTAINLY NOT the ONLY way God draws people ..."
I think you are taking what I said out of context. I said that I find it upsetting that people find a work of fiction (specifically The Shack) life changing. I think I made it clear that I find this work of fiction's depiction of God (the trinity) to be inaccurate. I don't have a problem with people being drawn to God through creation or other books written about Christianity. I do have a problem with a book that takes liberties with God's image. And that is what is upsetting. If a work of fiction is life changing, but it doesn't depict an accurate view of God than someone's life isn't changed for the best. You have just shifted your view of God, but it's no more right than your previous view.
I am sorry if my previous post didn't make this clear. I believe that the Word of God should be life changing, and if something doesn't line up with what it says, than it would be very dangerous to give it much credit or call it life changing.
I loved this book. I didn't agree with everything in it but he definitely causes you to think through your faith and he adds an emotional element to something that we often turn into pure logic. It has pushed most of the people that I know personally who have read it closer to God.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, "Papa" will send you a FREE copy of the book if you go to:
https://www.papaslove.org/Contact_Us.html
Elaine- I must respectfully disagree with you. No good Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim will be in heaven. It sad because their religions are just man's attempt to reach God but they miss the mark in a BIG way. C.S. Lewis said this regarding Jesus "You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God." If we believe that Jesus is not a fool or madman and He is the Son of God, then we must take Him at His word. In John 14:6 Christ said about Himself "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to Father except through me." Christ didn't say He was the best way, a way, or the best solution. He clearly said He IS the one and only way. That is the issue I have with The Shack. It gets way too close to saying all paths lead to God and that is heresy and more importantly it leads those who don't know Christ yet into a false sense of security. That some how believing in God is all they need, not a relationship with Christ. As to the making God as a woman, I may give some literary license there. Is it Biblically accurate? Nope. Although God does have both male and female characteristics (He has to since we are all made in His image) He is never referred to in the Bible as a woman. But I can understand the literary freedom there.
ReplyDeleteI appreciated this book in a way that shocked me. My sister scared me from reading it, then my pastor (I attend a Church of Christ) told me I HAD to read it...so I was INTRIGUED! Because COC is considered such a rigid denomination, I was just a little surprised he was suggesting this as a read...(we are a less than legalistic church FYI)...anyway...I read it and LOVED IT! I am now listening to it on cd (it just came out) and thoroughly appreciating it even more! I think the author did an awesome job of HUMANIZING the Holy Trinity. And if you don't agree with everything, you are playing your cards right...the only THE ONLY THE ONLY thing you should believe all of is The Bible...that is my opinion anyway...
ReplyDeleteI liked it...not because I agreed with everything, but because it made me think. Whether it is a work of fiction, or the holy scriptures, I think God can use it to challenge our traditional thinking.
ReplyDeleteTo alex fear - God was portrayed as a woman during the majority of the book, but, if you remember, he does appear as a man towards the end. I think the authors use of a female for God was less of a desire to mix it up or just piss people off, and more of a desire to most accurately reflect a God who has always been willing to do whatever it takes (i.e. give his own Son) to meet people where they are...to provide them with whatever it takes to bring them into a knowledge of Him. In the story, God comes to Mack as a woman initially because he knows that the issues he has with his dad would make it near impossible for him to connect fully with a man.
I loved the book. Yes there were things that were kind of weird to read but it is okay to read fiction and leave some of it and take other parts of it. We do that ALL the time. I don't understand seeing things as black and white as some of the commenters. God is above gender, neither man nor woman necessarily. That is just how we all decided it should be.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, you got your lively comments. :)
Amanda,
ReplyDelete"In the story, God comes to Mack as a woman initially because he knows that the issues he has with his dad would make it near impossible for him to connect fully with a man."
I'm just curious if you or anyone else agrees with this quote.
Is the Tri-un God of the bible not sufficient for a man's pain and hurt if he had a bad relationship with his earthly dad?
This is not about creativity or God showing us who He is by His creation. We don't look at an eagle in all its majesty and then say "maybe God is part eagle, part bear and part alligator".
Even if you think it helps.
@Amanda,
ReplyDeleteWhilst I understand and appreciate your sentiment, any man who has either lost, been abandoned or never had a father should know how important it is for that person to be received by a father figure.
I totally do think the author was attempting to defy and stretch the boundaries of people's image of God, which is fine, but why not then make the protagonist a female rather than a male?
God would know that being the type of person Mack is, he would respond better to a father figure than a mother figure.
I know this because I was also raised by my mother, and have received counseling in this respect.
(But you don't need to have gone through the experience to know broken men relate better to father figures... simply ask yourself what teenage boy doesn't hide certain things from his mum that he would confess to his friends or a father-type?)
If anyone is looking for a more "critical" eye turned toward the book (although not a hateful eye), this site http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2008/07/shacking-up-with-godwilliam-p-youngs.html is very helpful.
ReplyDeleteDr. Ben Witherington is a theology professor at Asbury Seminary and has read "The Shack" and given insight into how it's theology operates out of a mode of fiction.
Thanks for the thought-provoking material Jon!
While I have not read The Shack, I have seen him play basketball and I must admit, he's rather exceptional.
ReplyDeleteOkay, just a lighter note to spread some sunshine and daisies through the mine field. (Imagine me skipping, merrily.)
I haven't read The Shack, but in response to David's question a while back,
ReplyDelete"so the question for me is, does this book's emotional/relational meaning outweigh the theological troubles?",
I think that we should view all fiction in relation to the Bible, first, to see if it matches up. I don't think we should go for an 'emotional boost' or whatever, if it means compromising on the essential truth in the Bible.
If we're going to embrace a story as something that should impact/change our lives, it should reflect Biblical truth.
Can you post the link to the original post on "The Shack" -- I can't find it.
ReplyDeleteI read this pretty recently and all the things you brought up had me saying, "Yeah, that's it!"
ReplyDeleteI am one also not to read books more than once. This one and Till We Have Faces by Lewis are the exceptions. I have read latter three times and plan to read the former again, too.
Thanks for your take on this Jon!
Miss Hannah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your rebuke. I genuinely appreciate people looking out for me, as default mode is certainly "jerk" when I wake up in the morning.
However, in this case, I am going to stick to my guns a bit. Mormonism as a religion (I have a bachelors degree in Religion with a focus in early American religious history, and I have studied LDS beliefs and practices extensively) can be characterized as nothing short of closing both eyes and covering your ears and repeating "I'm not listening, I'm not listening." They refuse to talk about issues, dodging the questions when confronted intellectually or emotionally (try debating with them if you don't believe me), so the only option I have to get through to them is to make fun of them.
That brings me to this point: a great sermon to listen to is by Mark Driscoll (who shares my predisposition for gentleness) on "does God have a sense of humor?" In it, he makes a fantastic point that the way to deal with overly religious folks (be they Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, or whatever) is to make fun of them. It helps them to see themselves as a joke and prevents others from being tempted to follow in their ways. Mormonism is a joke. You get special underwear when you become a Mormon. Seriously.
Jesus made fun of how religious people pray. He made fun of how religious people fast. He made fun of the Pharisees and Scribes relentlessly. Because they were a joke. And they needed to know it, and repent of their foolishness.
It is not my heart to alienate other religions. It is my heart that they might see what a joke they are, and what a joke I am, and learn to laugh at themselves and me, and ultimately come to repentance. Because Jesus wasn't joking when he said "I am THE way."
I am frequently wrong, and I frequently offend people. But when all is said and done, I am just a signpost, pointing people to Jesus. A ridiculous, laughable, joke of a signpost.
Just a thought: While yes, God is refered to in Scripture a number of times with the pronouns "He" or "Him", God also speaks of Himself as a "...mother who longs to gather her children...." (Micah & some other prophetic writings (Amos/Hosea maybe??))
ReplyDeleteAnyway, we would be remiss if we cast something aside simply because it doesn't fit into the mold we think needs to be used. God is neither male nor female - "God created humans in His image. Male and female He created them."
Hebrew doesn't have an androgenous verb tense. So God had to be one or the other - apparently Moses picked male.
God chooses to relate to us based on the things we know - Father, Bridegroom, husband, Master, friend....
Why can't we relate to God also as a mother, which is how He is portrayed in the above passage?
Just a thought. Although, I very well could be rambling and considerably off my rocker? =)
Carrie-
ReplyDeleteI am afraid that I have to disagree with your use of C.S. Lewis to support your argument. He did say that. And I agree, that once a person is fully confronted with the person of Christ, they must either dismiss Him eternally or accept Him. However, C.S. Lewis does not present the idea that only Bible-believing, Church-going, fundamentalist Christians are going to heaven. He actually broaches a much more liberal view.
A major concept Lewis explores is the idea of "Tao." This isn't actually the tao of taoism. Lewis uses the word "tao" to represent the ideas of right and wrong that are ingrained in humanity. An example he uses is that while cultures may differ on the number of wives a man may have, none have advocated the taking of any woman he pleases as often as he pleases for whatever he pleases.
In "The Great Divorce" he speaks of people starting in hell and ending in heaven such that "the Blessed [those that end in heaven] will say 'We have never lived anywhere except in Heaven,' and the Lost [those who end in hell], 'We were always in Hell.' And both will speak truly."
In "The Last Battle," Lewis personifies many of these ideas in the Calormene Emeth. Through the course of the story, Emeth arrives in Narnia's version of heaven. He went expecting to find Tash (the god of the Calormenes; essentially the antithesis of Aslan, the equivalent of Christ). What he found instead was Aslan. In chapter 15, he relates his conversation with Aslan to the others. "[Aslan said],'Son, thou art welcome.' But I [Emeth] said, 'Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but a servant of Tash.' He answered, 'Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me....I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and non which is not vile can be done to him.'"
It is not for you to say that "No good Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim will be in heaven." That is for God alone to decide.
Oh, one more thing Jon? Errr ... explain the Kathie Lee references? (hahahah)
ReplyDeleteJust out of curiosity, why do you call Kathy Lee Gifford "KPG"? What does the "P" stand for?
ReplyDelete"The point is that labeling something as fictional does not automatically mean that we should accept or reject the very non fictional ideas within it. Young's characters wrestle with real things and just because they are done within the context of a novel does not mean we can't approach them with care and consideration."
ReplyDeleteTHANK YOU. My gosh, if some people had their way, no one would ever write a review of any fictional book ever. We'd all just love and accept every work of fiction simply because it was fiction.
"The Shack" doesn't sound like my cup of tea and I don't plan to read it, but I appreciate your making that excellent point.
Stacy from Louisville,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the daisies - I for one needed that tonight. We're in Day 2 of VBS, which is when kids start having being tired trouble.
I'm just curious, those who say we need to reject or discard anything that does not line up with correct theology - do you watch tv or read the newspaper? Do you listen to only music that lines up theologically or will we find some Country or R&B? I'm not trying to be mean and I hope this doesn't read that way. It's great that you're passionate for pure theology. However, vehement generalizations are never good rhetorically, especially if they are proven fale.
I don't have time to read all the other comments people have made, but here's mine. What you have written about this book is great. I read the book the other weekend after seeing the author being interviewed on the Today Show. I was touched to the very core of my being by the love of God this book portrays. I can't stop thinking about it and I'm ready to read the book a second time with pen in hand. I have since watched You Tube videos of other interviews he has done and have been reading his blog. I absolutely believe he has come to know God in a way that we desperately need.
ReplyDeleteSarah Lewie:
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response - sincerely - though I disagree a bit in the direction you're going -it was nice to see someone actually use Scripture to back it up.
And there are those passages in the O.T. and even Paul makes the comparison (albeit of his co-laborers and himself) in I Thess 2:7 to that of a 'nursing mother'.
However, as you know these are comparisons, metaphors, similes and thus the authors are not saying God is a woman or anything like that. It is God's attributes are compared to those of a mother.
Also God is also compared to a variety of things in the Bible - eagles, lights, doors, etc - the Scripture doesn't allow for us to actually pray, "Our Eagle who art in Heaven...". I'm not trying to be sarcastic - just trying to show where the consistency of The Shack's thinking ends up.
"Anyway, we would be remiss if we cast something aside simply because it doesn't fit into the mold we think needs to be used. God is neither male nor female
'God created humans in His image. Male and female He created them.'"
The Shack doesn't just make comparisons, but pictures the actual persons themselves of the Trinity in complete contradiction to the Word. It is not at all a matter of the author not fitting into our mold...it doesn't fit into the mold of the whole Biblical view of the Trinity and/or Salvation period.
Not to elevate Jesus' words over any other biblical passage, but I do think He is our example in everything - including how to think, address and refer to God the Father, Himself and the Spirit. And He doesn't say anything about the Father being a mother.
Yes I know the book is fiction. I would add so is its teaching as well.
Churchy - It's hard for me to believe that you would assertain from my comment that I don't believe that the Tri-une God is sufficient to deal with a broken man's pain. Obviously that is a gross exaggeration of my point. God is all sufficient and a Healer and a Restorer. However, your comment and Alex fear's does make me want to ammend my point a bit. I still think that Young didn't portray God as a woman to piss people off. I think that God was portrayed through most of the book as a woman because Mack expected God to be a man. I think the point was to totally shake Mack's preconceptions from the get go...to start fresh. I also think the author understood that Mack's relationship with his father would cause some unnecessary friction if God were portrayed as a man. So, "God" sidestepped it by appearing as a woman. Let me illustrate what I mean.
ReplyDelete(Enter imaginary conversation between Mack and "God" that could have happened before "God" decided to be seen as a woman.)
Mack: "Wow! God you are just as I imagined. A man. I get it you are my father. Hey, by the way, can we talk about that cause my dad was a jerk and I don't see how I can accurately relate to you when the thought of a father brings u all kinds of crap in me."
God: "Oh..okay...well...I have some other stuff I'd like to talk with you about and since the father thing might get you a bit hung up...*poof*...I'm a woman. Can we move on now and come back to the dad thing later?"
Mack: "Sure...that was righteous, God....(snickers)...get it...righteous."
P.S. Also,in my experience, as a counselor, I believe that HEALTHY broken men relate best to father figures. UNHEALTHY broken men...or men that have not really dealt with their own father issues, tend to to relate better to women.
Ok, I don't have much to contribute here since I haven't read the book yet, but I felt I had to drop this comment. Your timing with this post is CRAZY... I was in walmart a couple days ago looking for a certain book when I randomly saw "The shack" on the shelf. I picked it up and gave it a good look-over since I had heard about it months ago. I feel like the timing of this post is a prompt for me to read it, hmm...
ReplyDeleteWilliam P. Young answers the question himself as to why God was portrayed as an African American woman. There are You Tube videos on his website of interviews he has done. He says that probably due to the events and bonds and losses of his own childhood, a black mother figure was the closest thing he had experienced to God's unconditional love.
ReplyDeleteDoes it really matter? Just the experience of God's love as a trinity and toward us, his beloved creation, and the fact that we can truly trust Someone who loves us so completely, is the message of this book, and one so desperately needed.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your clarification! I figured that you weren't saying it was bad to call God a woman, but I wanted to make sure. I love your blog!
To those who are so sure that Scripture never refers to God as a woman: Deuteronomy 32:18: "You neglected the Rock who begot you, and forgot the God who gave you birth." Last time I checked, only women give birth. Isaiah 42:14: "I have kept silent for a long time, I have kept still and restrained myself. Now like a woman in labor, I will groan, I will both gasp and pant." Isaiah 66:13: "As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you."
I do not deny that the pronouns for God are exclusively male. But why deny use of maternal imagery, especially as God uses it in His own prophetic self-revelation? What are we losing in our legalistic efforts to regulate language about God? What aspects of God's love are ignored or hidden when we refuse to see God as Mother as well as Father? If your conscience does not permit you to call God Mother, then don't. But allow me my freedom in Christ, please.
As for C.S. Lewis, "thepianist86" has answered that excellently.
Hey Jon and Readers of This Outstanding Blog,
ReplyDeleteThis is a great post, and topic. It's one we have to wrestle with, and I'm happy there's a place that we can all engage and wrestle with ideas like those presented in The Shack.
We need to read people we disagree with, or even think we might disagree with. Let's find the meat and spit out the bones.
I have a radio show, which I'd like to have you on Jon. We're on Sirius Satellite radio on Sunday nights 9:00 EST Channel 161. I've had Paul Young on the show twice, and I'd encourage all of you to listen to the interview with Paul about this book.
Here's a link to that archived broadcast: http://www.talprincelive.com/templates/System/details.asp?id=41919&PID=563341
There's also some great interviews with him at www.drewmarshall.ca
As a counseling pastor, I can say that this has been tremendously healing in the lives of those that have been through deep pain. Paul was sexually abused for years starting at age 4, and grew up a missionary kid in New Guinea. Get him in his context, and the book takes on some new angles.
I'm not joking, Jon - we'd love to have you on the show! It would be fun!
Amanda,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for not clarifying that the only part of that post that was specifically intended for you was the question:
"I'm just curious if you or anyone else agrees with this quote?"
Everything after that question was for the general public.
I meant no personal 'attack'.
"Also,in my experience, as a counselor, I believe that HEALTHY broken men relate best to father figures. UNHEALTHY broken men...or men that have not really dealt with their own father issues, tend to to relate better to women."
I agree with the above statement - however, wouldn't you say that its imperative for the 'unhealthy broken man' to address his past with his father so as to become the 'healthy broken man'?
I'm not sure I can count the number of testimonies of men who struggle with homosexuality that trace their own roots to the 'absent dad' - just wondering if this is imperative in your mind.
Thanks for your time and patience with me.
Wow...I was just going to leave a comment saying that I genuinely appreciated your thoughts on the book. I read it on the recommendation of a woman who is like a spiritual mother to me--she desires to honor God in every aspect of her life. I'm amazed at how worked up people are getting about this book. I enjoyed reading it and it did challenge me to evaluate some of my views. However, with anything that challenges my thinking, I first look back to the ultimate truth before changing anything. I really appreciate Young's book and intend to reread the book soon.
ReplyDeleteElaine,
ReplyDeleteThere are some of us that do not deny the Scripture's use of maternal imagery.
I still say there is no license to go from comparing an attribute of God (love, care, etc) to a mother's to saying God is Woman.(just as it it wrong to say He is a man!!)
No one ever, ever when talking TO God addresses Him as "Mother". "Father"??....uhmm obviously yes and I know you agree with this.
"What are we losing in our legalistic efforts to regulate language about God? What aspects of God's love are ignored or hidden when we refuse to see God as Mother as well as Father?"
What one is loosing is biblical ground to do so. He is not both Mother and Father. His attribute are LIKE a mother's, but He is the "Father".
If Jesus was (and He was/is) our example in everything - than that includes how we look at the Trinity. He never addresses the Father as 'Mother'. Not once. I'm not sure we actually do have freedom in Christ to "call God a woman".
To summarize: making comparisons of God's attributes to a woman are different from saying "yeah God is a woman". And yet to deny that the Bible compares God's attributes to a Mother is also unbiblical and harmful.
thepianist86- I'm sorry but I must disagree with you here. C.S Lewis never advocated Taoism. He did however try explain about people who have NEVER heard of Christ and die, would they get to heaven. That IS up to God. And your take of The Great Divorce confused me. I always though the book was trying to explain why people go to hell. And in the end, C.S. Lewis tries to say that people would actually choose hell over heaven because of their own selfishness, etc. But that's not the point of this thread. When a Buddist or Hindu is confronted with the truth of Christ, they DO have a choice as I think you stated. And no good intentions or actions will get them to heaven. And I think you are getting into stereotypes when you use "fundamentalist" too. Why do people use that word as a weapon anyway? Oh well. I simply said what the Bible says. John 14:6 states clearly that Jesus IS the only way. I didn't say it, C.S. Lewis didn't say it, our Savior said it. I simply used the quote of C.S. Lewis not to support who gets to heaven or not. I used it to support the fact that if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God then we have to assume that the words He said were true or else He was crazy cuz His claims were bold. John 14:6 is Jesus making a claim about Himself. It wasn't Paul's claim or Moses' claim or anyone else's. It was Christ's. So when you say that all those who believe in Buddha or Allah or Vishnu go to heaven, you are in a sense calling the claims Christ made about Himself are untrue. Thus calling Him a liar. I don't judge who goes to heaven, Christ did. And He CLEARLY states He's the only way. So I'm not judging when I say those people won't go to heaven, I'm just stating what Christ claimed about Himself.
ReplyDeleteI'm a little late in the game responding, but I loved The Shack. It takes some getting over yourself to go there and get past a lot of the stuff that's been ingrained in us to get to the main message, but, it's worth it :)
ReplyDeleteCarrie, I'd suggest re-reading the post you're objecting to. I don't think anyone said Lewis advocated Taoism and in fact that post says just the opposite. But in The Abolition of Man Lewis argues for Natural Law, or "the standard of objective value" which he believes all people share an awareness of, regardless of time or culture. Lewis chose to use a non-western word ("tao" or "the tao") to describe this sense of objective value or natural law.
ReplyDeleteAnother Lewis quote, this one from "Mere Christianity":
"We do know that no person can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved by Him."
churchy - i ABSOLUTELY believe it is imperative for broken men to deal with their struggles with their dad in order to become healthy. That is certainly what is necessary and what is best. I was just saying that I think that is why, initially God is portrayed as a woman(before mack has dealt with anything), and even more so why God is later portrayed as a man.
ReplyDeleteThe reality is that God could choose to do whatever he wanted if he chose to met with us face to face. This is one man's opinion as to what he felt like could happen. I wouldn't have necessarily written it this way, but I commented on it mainly to say why I am not offended by it. When I read it, I felt like, "Yeah, that jives with a God who meets us where we are....who intimately knows our needs and who goes to great, unconventional lengths to meet those needs."
Blessings, churchy. It's fun to spar a little and dig a little deeper, amen?!?
i cant freaking believe i agree with KLG....
ReplyDeleteKarl- Thanks for the correction. I re-read the post and your are correct I misread that part about Taoism BIG time. No wonder I was so confused :) My sincere apologies to thepianist86. It takes a lot of concentration to discuss the words of a brilliant man like C.S. Lewis and apparently I was out to lunch when I read that part of your post :) I had no intention of creating a discussion on the interpretation of C.S. Lewis quotes when I borrowed from him :) I was simply using the quote to support the fact that Christ claims He is the only way in John 14:6. So, regardless of what I say, you say, or C.S. Lewis says, that claim Christ makes about Himself is true. You can't say you believe who Christ is and then deny what He claimed about Himself being the only way. Hey man, I just believe Christ is who He says He is. He claims to be the only way and so I have to take Christ at His word or my faith isn't worth much is it? That's not judgemental, it's just taking Christ at His word.
ReplyDeleteAmanda,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response...quite the breath of fresh air actually! Sparring is fun and necessary! I truely believe that "truth becomes clear through conflict" - and not around it.
And I also agree God takes us where someone is. However let me clarify what I mean.
He meats the sinner who repents and He changes them into a child of his. There are no buhddist, islsamic or mormon children of God. There are only EX-buhddists, islamic, mormon, etc. children of God.
I Cor 6:9-11
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
Perhaps this is your understanding as well, I'm not sure. However, the biblical understanding of "God taking us as we are" seems to be different than what is written in The Shack.
God absolutely wants to and has to change us to become a child of God. The teachings of other religions do not compliment the Scriptures, they are in contradiction.
After all this time, the Church in America is being asked that very question, "Indeed, has God said...?" Indeed Satan is still that crafty serpent.
I hope the author does clarify his view on Salvation and the Trinity. I think he owes to his readers and maybe even his children.
I am so intrigued by this discussion. I read The Shack at my kids' recommendation and fell in love with the premise of Young's storyline. No one seems to have grabbed onto the idea that Mack calls the Father "Papa." In talks with friends to whom I gave the book for Easter, we discussed the idea that GOD is so "other," as the concept Young was attempting to convey, and not demasculanizing the Godhead.
ReplyDeleteChurchy - I'm not sure we are really talking about the same things anymore. I've never really talked about Islam or Mormonismn, etc. Regardless, I'm not sure that we wouldn't be, at least for the most part, on the same page about all of that stuff.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, right after I read the book, I went to the authors website..the name of it escapes me now but I am sure you can google it...to see if he did explain his thoughts on salvation. He acknowledged that he was getting quite a bit of feedback stating that he was a universalist and it really seemed to sadden him. He did a good job of clarifying his thoughts on salvation and of very clearly stating that Jesus is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, and the ONLY life. I was glad he did.
I don't like critisizing books too much, because i know just how hard it is to write one, but i had some major problems with The Shack. I thought that overall, the book was pretty shallow. also i thought that the god character was a big mess-up. I think at the most basic level it cut God short, and on a higher level, totally reinvented him. If this was a purely secular book, it wouldn't have bothered me, but since the book is christian, it disturbs me that this is how the author sees God. I know people will argue that the author doesn't really see God that way, but every author writes what they believe, even if it is by accident.
ReplyDeleteI had not heard of the shack until you mentioned it and then saw the author was speaking at catalyst conference (my wife and I can't go this year-we are both depressed)So I picked it up at Sam's club.
ReplyDeleteI really like things that make me think and this madwe me think. I will probably read it again with a more "theological eye" but it really made me think. As of not I do not think you can go this is heresy. As a matter of fact, It could be good for people who are struggling with who God is.
It does have the potential to be spiritually dangerous and in some ways that may not be a bad thing.
I am just not sure what to do with it yet, the biggest reason is a girl from our church was abducted from the county fair and brutally murdered about 5 years ago. So the book hits some nerves that are still pretty raw here. I actually liked the Black woman thing in God saying you weren't ready for a father yet. I know people where God as father is not comforting because its not a good image for them. But when it was time that's who He was.
But the recommendation from Kathy Lee almost made me never read it!!
Ok I did not get all roads lead to God,out of the statement. Just that Jesus has done all He can. Maybe I'll look hard next time. Secondly I am not sure what concept of the trinity was blasphemous. Because let's face it non of us "get" the trinity. If anything was a pretty good allegory for the trinity.
ReplyDeleteWe need a little more of #6 in all areas of life as Christians.
ReplyDeleteAnd does KLG need her own post?
I had the bizarre experience to buy this book as an audio download, with no prior knowledge of it AT ALL -- expecting a thriller/horror novel. The only mention the publisher's synopsis makes of it's theological content is "...a suspicious note, apparently from God...". In a conventional thriller this "suspicious" and "apparently" divine note would turn out to be not only bogus, but very sinister...
ReplyDeleteI bailed about when the Asian woman was collecting tears off his clothes. This was a bit like expecting to taking a sip of water and getting beer instead. Bleh.
Now I'm combing the web looking for a full, spoiler-filled synopsis. I'm slightly interested in how it ends, but not nearly curious enough to sit through the protagonists' 'life changing' experience.
Ok, so i hope that no one will take offense to this, 'cause that's not my goal at all. What you see below is the conviction taking place in My heart.
ReplyDeleteWhile skimming over the responses listed here, I was suddenly struck by the fact that we (me too here) have so much to say about this novel. Yet a post about a chapter in the bible would not garner nearly the amount of response.
It's amazing that a fictional work of man can cause such a stir in our culture, (or sub-culture),but the perfect Word of God does not.
foolishj
Let's see...
ReplyDelete1. The Prayer of Jabez
2. The Purpose Driven Life
3. The Shack...
It never ends.
"I thought that overall, the book was pretty shallow. also i thought that the god character was a big mess-up. I think at the most basic level it cut God short, and on a higher level, totally reinvented him."
ReplyDeleteAmen brother/sister/non-gendered-sibling.
I read the book because my Bible study group wanted to talk about it this year. I was expecting to either find it emotionally challenging and insightful, or blaphemous and dangerous.
I found it neither.
I feel that the author could have done a lot more with the premise. He attempted to tell us how the protagonist felt, instead of showing us. He created emotions without laying out a basis or reason for them. And I felt each 'contact' was rushed, as if each member of the trinity had to have their say and get off stage as quickly as possible before anyone realised they weren't saying anything.
Maybe the ideas didn't seem too revolutionary because I already think about God that way, or maybe I am just too stupid to understand them, but I got nothing from this book.
Sorry.
I didn't care for The Shack for one simple reason that the poor author could have done nothing about, really.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read it, I missed God.
Now, granted when you write a book about a man who goes and talks with God, you have the difficult challenge of having to actually write with God's voice. And we are... not God. We cannot say with certainty how God speaks, we can only say how he speaks to *us*.
The book was probably great as a portrayal of the way God speaks to those authors. But when I read it, I spent the whole time thinking, "Awww. I miss God." I missed hearing his voice as I have heard him speak to me. When he speaks to us, he says them in ways we will connect to. To me, he speaks in poetry and song. To others, he gives practical answers to problems. He can certainly do both... but he meets the need where it is (like I know a lot of practical answers, but I need the motivation to get started).
Part of the beauty of Christianity is, of course, that God *does* speak to us all differently, and only Scripture manages to capture every way God speaks to us. So... not necessarily a fault of the authors. Almost more a celebration of the fact that it is reaching people who would never have responded to my version of the tale, or yours, or Frank Peretti's, or Donald Miller's (although who doesn't respond to Donald Miller's stories?).