(Update: Let's talk about this topic again soon. I think some poorly worded sentences on my part got in the way of a potentially important idea we should discuss.)
A few weeks ago I spoke at a conference that required me to fly. In arranging rides to and from the airport with the conference staff, I realized they had me scheduled to be driven back to the airport for my flight home by a lady.
I know what you're thinking, "Hey, you've got a book coming out, don't you have an entourage with one really big guy who everyone calls 'Tiny' and another guy who can always talk his way out of a jam and possibly a really tall guy who can reach things on shelves that you can't? Aren't you rich?" Yes, I mean globally speaking I am rich in that when I went to pick out shoes to wear today it was a multiple choice test. But I don't have an entourage, which is a request that Zondervan continues to ignore. When I travel it's just me and my backpack. No luggage, no baggage, just a seemingly bottomless LL Bean backpack which makes me feel a bit like Dora the Explorer.
So without an entourage, I decided to request that a guy drive me to the airport. I just wasn't comfortable with the idea of spending an hour in LA traffic alone with a girl. That just didn't seem smart to me and the conference was completely cool with that request. They found a guy, everything was good.
That felt like a no brainer to me. But what about other less obvious situations? When you get married, you’re suddenly thrown into all these awkward opposite sex friendship moments.
What about having a one on one meeting with a woman? Is it enough to just leave the door open? Or do you have to have three people present at all times? I know churches who use both approaches. My boss at work is a woman. When we talk about my salary and the exorbitant raise she's not aware yet she's giving me at the end of the year but will know about soon because people at my IT job have started to read this blog, do I have to invite someone else to the conversation? What if I forget to? Can I grab the janitor on the way to the meeting and just tell him to maybe vacuum in the room we're in if he feels weird and wants to multitask?
What about a lunch meeting? A married friend recently told me that if he couldn't go out to lunch with females he couldn't do his job. Is lunch with a lady a date? What if it's a business lunch? The CEO of Zondervan is a lady, what if she calls me and says, "Jon, we'd like to give you a 37 book deal and your own Honda Ruckus Scooter for a cross country tour called 'Ruckus by Ruckus,’ can we go out to lunch to discuss the details?" Do I have to invite someone along with me? What if my wife is not available that day?
And when you get married, at what point do you have to officially retire the silly sentence, "I've just always gotten along better with the opposite sex, that's how I'm wired?"
I don't know. I don't have the answer on this one. Just the idea that things get a little awkward when you get married and have to figure out friendships with the opposite sex. But of the two camps, "Jeez you're such a Puritan, loosen up" and "Better safe than sorry, can a dude drive me to the airport," I know which one I want to fall into. Because no one ever wakes up and says, "Today I'm having an affair." Affairs are slow burn decisions, with a wick a mile long made of little steps and little compromises.
Are you single?
Did your married friends of the opposite sex dump you the second they got hitched?
Are you married? What's your approach? What are your boundaries?
As a single female, I can attest that opposite sex friendships are pretty much awkward no matter if you're married or not. Marriage just adds an extra layer of awkward.
ReplyDeleteIn best case scenarios, friends who get married bring a cool new person into your social circle, guys you can talk to talk to in groups. And you don't worry so much about if they're secretly hitting on you because you're both taking turns throwing out comments about how awesome their wife is.
Notice I didn't say friends who get married bring girls into your groups. If you're a single female and your primary friend is the guy, you can usually wave good-bye when he starts dating. Which is a little awkward in itself because in some situations you sort of feel like you were a placeholder friend, a girl who was fun to hang out with until girlfriend material came along. If I meet a woman I get along with, I may entertain the possibility that we will be friends forever. If I meet a man I get along with, I start the clock ticking. (Still not sure if that reaction is healthy or based in reality...and do men experience the same thing?)
One of the many awesome things about heaven is that this awkward opposite sex stuff will be finished with forever.
I'm totally with you on the airport run.
ReplyDeleteI have friends of both sexes, but they are also friends from my old youth group, my husband's old youth group and from work and church now.
I know I am more relaxed if I have the female friends in the room when talking with the male, and if only a male there I stay standing, preferably with a bench, table or chair between us if in a house, but outside I am more relaxed.
I think it is a 'be seen to be doing what is right, as well as doing what is right' thing.
But if I am talking with a male outside, I am a lot more at ease and less protective of myself, knowing that there is less chance of anything causing a problem with our relationship (and it follows my relationship with my husband).
It is a slow burn (as in the song) which causes problems, so I do what I can to prevent it.
wv 'redin' - keep the door open and you won't be redin the face if anyone walks in!
Well, I guess this is the reason married men feel the need to shield themselves with their children the second I walk through the church doors.
ReplyDeleteI think there's a big difference between 'friends' of the opposite sex and 'co-workers' of the opposite sex. I have a husband who travels a lot and doesn't work with people who would be down with "I want a GUY to pick me up from the airport." On occasion he has lunch with a woman or is picked up/returned to the airport by a woman. Could something come of it? Sure. There's temptation all around. But he also has to do his job in 21st century usa, and that includes co-workers of the opposite sex. He has to make some good choices....no meetings in hotel rooms, no happy hours, etc. Don't get me wrong....if you're uncomfortable with a gal driving you to the airport, and you have the option to change that, good for you. But I think for most people in corporate America, that's just business as usual. Now, if he had a female friend with whom he wanted to spend time without me....
ReplyDeleteI always got along better with girls in HS, but I realized something in college when I started getting a lot of female friends who were less available when they found out I ad a girlfriend. I was subconsciously flirting, and I somehow didn't tell them about my girlfriend for as much as a few days. I made a point of controlling my relationships with females from that point on and now most of my friends are guys.
ReplyDeleteThat said, if I meet with a female in my office and it is just the two of us, the door is open. If I know we will need the door closed because of what will be discussed then I arrange for someone else. I don't take girls I'm not related to in car trips by myself. If I'm dropping students off I will keep a guy in the vehicle till last or two girls that are going to the same place. I don't meet with females for lunches, coffee, snack ... without my wife or someone else.
So far it hasn't been much of a hassle.
I've been married 22 years and have always had friends of the opposite sex, many I met through work or grad school - but we've never had a problem with this. It just seems natural. My husband is an elder, and when someone requests counseling, he always makes sure to have someone with him, because that can get tricky, Also, if I am socializing with a male co-worker/friend, I never talk about a fight I've just had with my husband or anything like that, which I might do with a close girlfriend. These boundaries seem to work for us, but everyone knows their own boundaries. I've received the Christian version of the "evil eye" if I'm seen having lunch or dinner with a male friend - but I figure that spices up somebody's life and makes me look a lot more interesting than I really am.
ReplyDeleteI'm the only single in my group of friends (I'm a widow in my late forties), and I make it a point to befriend the wife/sweetheart of any guy I call friend. Yeah, most of my favorite people are guys, but I'll never put them in a position that someone could accuse them of wrong. If it takes having the office door open, or not sharing a vehicle when it's just us two, I can live with that.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have to agree with Thursday on this, if I end up being the friend of an unmarried guy, sooner or later, it's going to end when he finds someone he's serious about. Sad but true.
Because I have a loving and forgiving God and a loving and forgiving wife, I'm still married after having (and eventually admitting to) a series of affairs. Needless to say I'm hyper-aware of how innocent situations can lead to slightly-less-innocent situations, and I simply don't have close female friends.
ReplyDeleteI had an awkward moment in our small group a while back though, when a married member of the group (in front of everyone else) gave me an open-ended invitation to "get together and chat". Now I know that she was only being friendly, and I don't think anyone else in the group saw anything but an offer of coffee and a chat. (Our small group seem to spend half their time in each others' houses, so this wasn't an unusual offer.) But I just froze, and then said something really ungracious-sounding, like "Erm... thanks but I probably won't." Then I wanted to explain that I hadn't meant to sound ungracious at all, but what could I say? "I won't meet with you just in case we end up having sex with each other"? "I know that you're only offering coffee, but you're such a temptress/I'm such a stud that we won't be able to help ourselves"? In the end I just kind of cleared my throat and looked at the floor until someone changed the subject. Not my most shining moment.
I'm a minister who's been very anal about the whole "if she isn't family we can't be alone" thing. It's never been too difficult, although a part time job I have has presented a few times of being alone with a lady, and there was nothing that could be done.
ReplyDeleteHowever, when I was in seminary, about two years ago, I worked at Chili's with about a dozen other seminary students. All of us were equally anal with this rule. One night, an older lady (lifer) had car problems and was going to have to walk home late at night. No one would give her a ride, because it was all seminary students, and we were all anal. I refused to let her walk home in the dark, so I told her to let me call my wife. My wife agreed, so I took her home, alone. Called my wife before and after. She needed help the next afternoon getting to work, and I decided to help since it was over 100 degrees that day. Worked it out the same way.
In the end, she was pleased, and open to talk about the gospel. She had complete respect for me, my wife, our marriage, and she would come to me for my opinions after that.
I forgot that we can kill if we forget that the letter of the law kills, but the Spirit gives life. I'm still anal, and it's still easy, but sometimes we just come across as legalistic jerks when we could have been salt and light.
FTR: not calling anyone associated with this blog or post legalistic or a jerk. Just want to be clear.
It's definitely better to be safe than sorry and to be above reproach when it comes to that kind of thing. I tend to get along better with females than males (I don't fish, hunt, watch NASCAR, or really like to go outside at all actually - which is a problem since I live in the south); at least I did before getting married.
ReplyDeleteNow it's just a matter of being innocent as a dove and wise as a serpent. And it works for me. (It also helps when your wife has the gift of discernment and points out all the women to just stay completely away from.)
I think this is the point when you have to rely on trust. You have to trust yourself and you have to trust your spouse. I have been with my husband for 5 yrs and not once have I ever felt threatened by him having lunch with his female coworkers or having female friends. I know that he feels the same way about my realtionships. I know that he would never act on any temptation, just as I wouldn’t. When we took our marriage vows, we took them very seriously and believe implicitly in the sanctity of marriage dictated by God.
ReplyDeleteWe also have seen what cheating in a marriage can do to a couple. We have good friends that sadly took this path, and the husband strayed. We have watched the anguish and the pain that this couple is going through. My husband and I know that we could never put each other through that pain.
I can understand wanting to try to avoid creating the temptation…but if you don’t that trust in your marriage…does it really matter?
~M
Here's the thing. Back in the bad old days I had 2 affairs with women who I played sports with. One raquetball, one basketball and tennis. So, after I got married again (yeah, that's right), and after I found Christ, I decided that there were boundaries with women I won't cross.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm a runner. I have been invited to run with women at work from time to time and I always say no. I know my limitations/temptations and I know better than to do that again.
I've had lunch. I've had meetings. Been out for drinks with a group that included women. That seems much safer than sports with women.
Married 6+ years. The first 5 of which were on staff at a church that required it as part of your employment, the whole "same sex" "boundary"...
ReplyDeleteNow that we are no longer forced to that rule, we actually TALK about our relationships with people of the opposite sex.
We don't have any "boundaries" except TALK. We tell each other who and where and why we're meeting and about how long it will take and if the other person is uncomfortable they have veto rights.
I actually find we are healthier because we are TALKING more about this instead of pretending it doesn't exist or avoiding it all together.
Oh, I could write a book on this one, but you summed it up perfectly:
ReplyDelete"But of the two camps, 'Jeez you're such a Puritan, loosen up' and 'Better safe than sorry, can a dude drive me to the airport,' I know which one I want to fall into. Because no one ever wakes up and says, 'Today I'm having an affair.'"
Yep - absolutely! Been there - from both sides! And don't think that it couldn't happen to you...that's where Satan loves to play!
I used to work as a young single woman in a mostly male environment. I often would be the only woman at a meeting. Sometimes I would travel with a married man. We always kept it professional- in a hotel, always meet in the lobby or restaurant, not in a hotel room. If I didn't already know him well, I always made it a point to talk about the man's family and children. I think that if you act professional (not flirty) you can avoid most problems at work. Sadly, most of my male friends became less of a friend when they married. I would have liked to get to know their wives and keep the friendships.
ReplyDeleteMy mother always told me that I shouldn't have guy friends. I never listened to her. I spent most of my growing up years hanging out with entirely male groups. And it was never a problem until I got out of school and found single, professional life very lonely for a girl.
ReplyDeleteAfter I married last year, a few of my male friends dropped off the face of the planet--not sure if it was my doing or theirs. However, I haven't found my life lacking. And the male friends who stayed are now friends with my husband.
It's impossible for me to do my job without meetings with just guys sometimes. I've never thought of that as an issue. Some of these comments have made me wonder if I'm being naive or missing something. Maybe I'll be more alert from now on, but I agree with Anonymous ~M (5:14am) that trust in your marriage could be the most important piece of this dilemma.
Elizabeth -
ReplyDeleteI know it feels really unfair when guys "shield themselves with their kids," like you said. They totally DO do stuff like that, and it hurts - but they don't mean to hurt you.
I used to think, "What? Just because I'm single, you think I'm going to go after YOU? Please." Their wives often treat single women the same way, and it ends up making you feel like you're doing something wrong - and you know you're not!
Really, though, it helped me when I realized that the issue is not with YOU, it is with THEM. They are not so much worried that you're going to come after them, as much as they are trying to do everything they can to make sure they don't ever get to a place where they would WANT that to be the case.
Does that make sense? I don't mean that every married guy is on the edge of an affair any minute; only that what Jon said is true. No one wakes up and decides to have an affair...it's gradual, and the best way to keep it from happening is to "nip it" in the beginning. If that means not getting to know you beyond a friendly "hi" on Sunday mornings, then that's what they've got to do - but it's not YOUR fault!
Some people in the Christian world REALLY need to think & pray about this subject.
ReplyDeleteI won't name names but I'm thinking of a word two letters long, starts with an "m," ends with "e" and rhymes with "me."
p.s. Janitors actually make killer accountability partners.
This is exactly why being single can be so lonely. I was going to comment one way, but after reading all the previous comments, now I understand why I feel like I'm the crazy aunt in the attic... i.e. What will we do with her?
ReplyDeleteHey.
ReplyDeleteMy parents are just divorcing after thirty years of marriage. While there were definitely underlying problems, the catalyst was my mom's affair that started out as a friendship, evolved into a sounding-board and progressed from there.
Given my own history of preferring opposite-sex friendships and my mom's affair, I am resolving to 1., keep friendships with members of opposite-sex friendships light, not confiding in them as I would in my husband or my female friends, and 2., keep my husband included in opposite-sex friendships as much as possible.
I do get along better with men than with women, but the line between friendliness and flirtation is thin and blurry. No friendship is worth damaging my marriage or hurting my husband.
Similar to what Anne Jackson and Anonymous just above her said. Having seen some close friends get divorced after she had an affair, and the effects not only on them but on all of that friendship group, it just reinforced me & my husband's commitments to our marriage vows. Talk and trust are our weapons, not avoidance. I'm very sad for all those who have said that they feel that can't have any opposite-sex friends.
ReplyDeleteAnd while it may be true that "no one ever wakes up and says, 'Today I'm having an affair.'", it still takes a series of deliberate choices, with the chance to turn back all along the way. "These things just happen" is just an excuse for "I thought I could get away with it".
But perhaps this is just because I'm female - it would honestly never occur to me that offering a stranger a lift to the airport to help them out would mean anything other than just that. If a man I was giving a lift to started flirting with me, I'd be horrified, make it very clear that that behaviour was wrong and report back to the appropriate person (his wife/boss, depending on context) asap.
I am single, but I have many married friends of the opposite sex. What I've tried to do, whether it be work related or not, is to either have other people there or make sure that the husband knows that I am out with their wife in a non-date, non-threatening kind of way.
ReplyDeleteSometimes this goes as far as talking to the husband so that they are comfortable with me. But I always try to check and make sure the husband knows, because it is the one-on-one meetings in secret that lead to afairs or rumors of afairs (which can be deadly too).
The best examples I have are: 1) two friends from high school (high school sweethearts) are married now and because the husband knows me so well, the fact that i keep in contact with his wife and that her and I have hung out before without him there is ok. and he always knows when those situations have come up. 2) a friend from college got married about a year ago and her and i have had some lunches to catch up, i make sure that her husband knows about it before we even get together. Oh, and I always makes sure its in a public place or somewhere that others can see, without quiet/overly private conversations.
I may be wrong on this one, but so far it has worked for me and I have not had any complaints from the wives this has happened with or their husbands.
I was a Youth minister and it is important to have this rule when dealing with minors. Even more, it is getting harder and harder to handle with same sex students.
ReplyDeleteI took my congregation recently that I don't meet one on one with any women who is not old enough to collect Social Security (since I'm 28). In 20 years that may change but it is a good rule for people here to remember.
I'm puzzled by the airport drop-off scenario. There's a plane leaving and you need to be on it, and LA traffic is awful. Therefore, the ride out to the airport is going to be stressful and generally unpleasant. I fail to see how this leads to inappropriate feelings, other than maybe road rage. Also, the logistics are crazy. "Hey look, a No-Tell Motel..." /meaningful look/ Really? I mean, REALLY??
ReplyDeleteMaybe if we're talking about the person escorting you FROM the airport, getting you checked in at the hotel, and then offering to carry your bags to your room. Well. I can carry my own bags.
The idea of "no closed doors" when it's only two people (me and a man) is equally ludicrous as a) people work for me and want to have private conversations occasionally and b) there's confidential information I need to discuss with one of my colleagues on occasion. Their gender is completely irrelevant. I will say that I would not have such a conversation in my hotel room if we're traveling. I'd find a quiet yet semi-public corner (hotel lounge or bar).
Food. Interesting. I have no problem whatsoever with a tete-a-tete with a coworker or colleague of the opposite sex, provided that it's business-related. In other words, "hey, let's grab some lunch, anyone else want to go? No? OK, we're off." No problem. I schedule meetings over lunch all the time with business acquaintances. It has never occurred to me that this might be perceived as some sort of date situation. Now that I think about it: Ick.
That said, I do have several business connections who are stricter as a matter of religious principle. I have worked with Orthodox Jews who would not touch me even to shake hands. Once I figured this out in the first minute or two (not hard based on the kippeh and the tassels), I was careful about a) not touching them/shaking hands and b) leaving doors open.
Know thyself (shoot, I can't remember the Latin of it). Stare full-on into your own motivations. Search your heart. Etc. You know very well whether you can "handle" a given situation or not.
ReplyDeleteHere's a helpful mind trick I've heard: imagine Jesus or your significant other floating above you & looking on as you interact with the opposite person; do they approve?
it make me feel a little uneasy seeing all the comments that say 'trust in your marriage' -- i agree there must be trust within your marriage, but i think to actually trust IN your marriage is trusting in something that is not necessarily capable. Only God if fool-proof; fail-proof; and trustable.
ReplyDeleteNow I don't mean we should be snooping around our spouse's stuff, listening to phone calls etc etc... but you have to have completely open communication and boundaries just as John mentioned.
Better safe than sorry for sure -- it can be such a gradual process that if you think back (insert some time frame here.. maybe a year) are you growing inapprorpriately close to an opposite sex friend? If it continued at that rate, when would the affair start... of course it's a bit of a fallacy to say it would continue at that rate ,but it did for a year and you probably didn't even notice.
Just be careful! Put your trust in God, not your marriage. Instead defend your marriage, just like John said if bears killed off 1/2 of each of us we would be better defended against bears (this doesn't just go for affairs of course, but that is part of it) http://stufffchristianslike.blogspot.com/2009/02/73-getting-caught-off-guard-by-divorce.html
Due to the confidentiality involved in my job as a counselor, there are times I meet with men one-on-one, whether clients or supervisors. It's one of those things I can't control, unless I decide not to see men clients and not have male supervisors. However, outside of the confidential stuff, my husband and I make sure we talk about our interactions with the opposite sex. He decided if a woman from work ever gives him a ride (i.e. people from work going to lunch), he will text me to let me know. We have a mutual friend who works in the same building with me, and I decided that whenever I stop by to say hello to him, I will always tell my husband about it. In general, we agree not to talk with opposite gender friends in an intimate or confiding way, especially never something that we don't or haven't talked about with each other.
ReplyDeleteIt was a conversation we started before we got married. I think it's important to keep the "boundaries with opposite sex friends" topic an open discussion because perhaps the boundaries may need to alter given different circumstances or seasons in life.
Oops. How do I delete a comment?
ReplyDeleteIf you are married you shouldn't open yourself up for temptation. What starts out to be nothing can turn into something in a heartbeat.
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping this post is a joke. I'm hoping you seriously didn't think that having a woman DRIVER meant that something sexual might just happen while she's driving you around (with you sitting in the back, as is customary when you have a driver or are in a cab). Did you think she was going to pull you over in the woods somewhere and take advantage of you? (lol) It's not like you were going to room with her at the hotel or anything.
ReplyDeleteWe live in a mixed-sex world. There are times when you're going to be alone with the opposite sex in certain public situations. It's OK. You're not going to be tempted to have sex. Chill.
Awhile back I found myself in what I thought would be an extremely awkward situation. We were moving and my husband had to drive the moving truck out on Sunday morning. The kids and I could not leave until the next afternoon. Our neighbors offered for us to stay at their home for the night and run us to the airport the next day. Shortly before, the wife and kids of the neighbors had to leave the country to see her family. She insisted that we still stay there with her husband. Her husband said it was fine with him as long as my husband was ok with it. I offered to get a hotel, but she was insistent. I talked with my husband and he said that he would do whatever I wanted. I knew my kids would be there creating the ‘buffer’ but they would go to bed early. We were very close with this family while we lived there but the opposite genders really never spent time alone together. Thankfully, it actually ended up be a nice evening and was not the least bit uncomfortable when all was said and done. That being said, it was not the first choice and I would have planned it go that way.
ReplyDeleteMy father had a few affairs. My husband's father had a few affairs. Do I even need to say that we've been very careful about protecting our marriage? Even if it seems silly or over the top to some people, you are wise to take precautions, Jon. It's true - no one ever wakes up and says that they're going to have an affair today.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to reply to something M-A and N said:
"If a man I was giving a lift to started flirting with me, I'd be horrified, make it very clear that that behaviour was wrong and report back to the appropriate person (his wife/boss, depending on context) asap."
I'm having a hard time with this scenerio, because I think most flirtatious behavior is subtle. Even if this person was interested in you, are they really going to be that obvious? Most people are cautious at first, not willing to put themselves 'out there' for fear of rejection. And besides, most people aren't *looking* to start an affair (unles they're really sick). I'm no expert, but I don't think affairs start like this very often.
I only bring this up because my husband and I met in college and had a great buddy/buddy friendship for almost 4 years (years!!!) before we started to realize something more was there and then eventually got married. So even though that is a *good* example of a friendship evolving, it's proof (to us) that it can and does happen and that we always need to be on our guard now that we're married.
I've been married for two years, but this hasn't been much of an issue for me. Most of my friends are males, and I work in an all male engineering firm (except for our awesome receptionists). As long as conversations remain objective (for work or study situations), then I don't see any problems. But once things start to go to personal life, the brakes should probably be applied.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is why it is so complicated to be a woman in ministry at churches with male staff. I will always be on the outside looking in.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is why as a single woman, I also feel like I am an outsider in churches. Married couples rarely befriend a single person.
How far do you go to protect yourself is a question that each individual and their spouse must answer.
ReplyDeleteDo you allow yourself to chat or email the opposite sex? How about building relationships by following a blog that is written by the opposite sex.
A lot of points of contact are over looked but they have potential for harm.
hm. I think this might be a partly generational thing? It doesn't seem that there are too many young people in the comments here. I'm a senior in college and I don't think opposite-gender friendships are really that awkward..
ReplyDeleteI would say both my fiance' and I have equal numbers of women and men as friends. People of both genders have joined our groups after they've gotten married (I go to a relatively conservative Christian college so lots of our friends are married :-D).
Basically, if we're hanging out one-on-one with an opposite-gender friend, we'll tell the other person where we're going and who we're going with, and generally stick to public areas... but that's it.
I've never felt awkward, never felt like this raised problems... again, maybe a generational or contextual thing?
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ReplyDeleteas a married man, i would never want to put myself in a situation where an accusation can be made. this is one thing Michelle (my wife) never has to worry about because i don't ride in cars alone with other females, and i don't do dinner dates, and i've even (like Billy Graham) stepped off an elevator because the only other person in the elevator was a young woman.
ReplyDeletethis issue is not a lack of trust in myself. i feel pretty good there. the issue is my wife knowing she never has to worry about that... and if someone did make an advance towards me or some other man or minister, and that person says what needs to be said and walks away... what's to say the person making the advance doesn't go ahead a spread the rumor that something did happen? perception is more powerful than the truth in this situation. if you were dumb enough to be caught in a "weird" situation... well, you live with the consequences.
and if you are accused, you better just pack your bags in this day and age. "innocent until proven guilty" just doesn't work here. if you are accused of something... you are tainted goods my friend, and no one will feel good about bringing you on their team....
stats don't lie... too many people get caught in "weird" situations because they didn't think about it and plan for it ahead of time. that's how bad stuff happens. the person that says "that'll never happen to me" is just asking for trouble.
Wow, have you been secretly lurking in my inbox? Because I have within the last couple of days had an email conversation with a very close male friend who is not my husband about this exact subject, defining what are appropriate boundaries for our friendship. I do think it's possible to have close opposite sex friendships outside the marriage relationship if the spouses involved are aware and involved and boundaries are honored. I have actually driven my friend to the airport and met him alone for coffee (in public places, during daylight hours). I don't think that's weird. I've gone out of my way to include both our spouses in the friendship, and I love his wife dearly. I've had at least an equal amount of fantastic one-on-one time with her over the past couple of years, too. I've just known him longer. Part of the reason it works is that I have a rock solid 15-year marriage. Although my husband and I have our conflicts like anyone else, we trust each other. He's my best friend and my one and only partner for life. I would never betray that, and I'm quite sure my male friend feels the same way about his wife.
ReplyDeleteI like the comment from SCS about letting people raise eyebrows since it only makes you seem more interesting than you really are. But I don't want to be totally oblivious to what other people may think, either (hence the reason behind the email conversation I was just having with my friend), so I stay mindful of not putting anyone in an uncomfortable position. In my case I'm a lot more concerned about how others perceive the friendship than any worry about crossing a line into illicit behavior. There's simply no chance of that.
As far as work relationships, I travel for work occasionally, sometimes with male co-workers. I also have closed door meetings with male coworkers all the time. I've honestly never thought twice about that. It's just part of the job, and all purely professional.
As Chris Rock says, "A man is only as faithful as his options"!
ReplyDeletePart of being married is trusting your spouse. I completely trust my husband. He works mostly with women, he travels with them, he lunches with them, he chats on blackberry messenger with them. I don't have a single problem with that at all. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the fact that he's married makes things a lot easier on his female friends and coworkers- it takes the 'is he or is he not flirting' out of it. Trust is one of the most important things in a relationship- if you don't have that, what do you have?
ReplyDeleteI also want to add that I think the real risk in opposite sex friendships is if you are being secretive about them. I've never shared anything with my male friend that my husband wasn't aware of or would object to, and I keep my husband informed of all communication I have with my friend. If there is nothing to hide, there is nothing to worry about.
ReplyDeleteMy husband once worked in an office where he was the only male (he still works in the same place, but now there are more males working there). He was friends with a female there who was also married. We used to go out together the four of us to Church plays and concerts. I was always comfortable with their friendship and never had reason not to be...
ReplyDeleteThere was another lady though who used to sit with him at lunch uninvited and flirt. He asked me my advice for what to do about it. I told him to mention me in every sentence he says to her, and that it wouldn't hurt to add that I get extremely jealous and violent! I also told him that just because he never seen it happen, it doesn't mean it'd be a lie if I had cause... (In case you are wondering, she moved on to someone else, who reported her. She no longer works for that company.)
My point is that if your spouse is totally out of place in your friendship with someone of the opposite sex, it is inappropriate to continue the friendship. But if you can mention your spouse without a damper on the mood of the conversation, and have a conversation that you wouldn't be embarassed to have your spouse overhear, I don't see why it has to be a big deal.
Monique -
ReplyDeleteI could have written your comment - that was me about 10 years ago.
Let me just say that if you are having the "defining our friendship boundaries" conversation, your friendship is too close. You need to be having the "boundary" discussion with your husband, not your friend. Take a step back from this friendship, even if that feels awkward or "extreme" to have to step back.
One of Satan's best tricks is to tell us we can "handle" things and that to make the sacrifices we know we ought to make would be too weird or extreme or legalistic.
I know from experience - his wife and I were great friends! She was my best friend ever, and hanging around with their family is how I got to know her husband so well and find out what a great guy he was! They had a rock-solid marriage, and trusted each other totally. They were (are) strong Christians who love Jesus - and were somehow able to stay married. And yet, their lives (and their children's lives) were devastated by the affair we never meant to have.
I don't mean to be harsh, and I know I don't know you or your situation, but I do wish someone had said this stuff to me. (Actually, they did, but I didn't listen.)
I hope you will prayerfully consider this, and I apologize in advance if I'm completely off-base. Just sharing from my own experience.
I respect married men who hold themselves to these standards all the more, since clearly a lot of people don't understand them. It's all well enough to say, "Don't do anything you know you can't handle," but holding to rules that keep you far from the edge is a safeguard against rationalizing your way into something you feel like doing (and everybody's good at that). Extreme and legalistic? Maybe, but sometimes it's a good idea to be legalistic *with yourself*.
ReplyDeleteI can relate to women who mourn the loss of their close male friends when they marry - it isn't fun to lose a friendship - but guess what? His marriage *is* more important than your friendship. A lot. The loving thing is to support him in his desire to protect his marriage and his reputation.
I have married male friends, but they're not intimate relationships with one-on-one time. There are people I get along with and chat with after church, and couples I've known so long I feel equally close to the husband and wife. Closer relationships with guys who later marry...well, those have to change.
At the same time, I agree that the modern workplace calls for some grace. It would be difficult to *never* be alone with a male colleague, though I respect anyone who feels he needs to make those boundaries. If I'm in a more-social type of situation with male coworker, I at least try to bring his wife and children into the conversation early on. Of course, if I'm ever married, I'll have to prayerfully consider whether my boundaries should change.
Monique -
ReplyDeleteI posted my anonymous comment before I saw your additional comment. I'm relieved to know that you don't have conversations with your friend that your husband isn't aware of. That makes a big difference!
Praying for you today!
Mella DP said:
ReplyDelete"Extreme and legalistic? Maybe, but sometimes it's a good idea to be legalistic *with yourself*."
and
"...but guess what? His marriage *is* more important than your friendship. A lot. The loving thing is to support him in his desire to protect his marriage and his reputation."
ABSOLUTELY. I was single for the first 12 years of my adult life, and I know the pain of "losing" guy friends when they get married, as well as that awkwardness of being single on an all-male church staff, not having "couple" friends, etc. It DOES hurt, it does seem unfair, and I'm sorry, but this stuff is STILL TRUE.
I love it, Mella! Thanks!
My husband could not do his job without having coffee/meals with women. He is a mortgage banker and relies on business from Realtors, who are 90 percent women. So we have rules, I'd rather him meet at a coffee shop than a restaurant, no alcohol, no dinners, no bars. You would be amazed how often people suggest getting together for a drink after work. Not gonna happen.
ReplyDeleteMarriage is hard and you need to fight for it and protect it every singe day.
Oh, I'm really sad that this is difficult for you and I will pray that you can find a way to have conversations with women that don't make you nervous.
ReplyDeleteI worry that you are only seeing women in a sexual way if this is so difficult for you and I wonder if thoughts like this taken a bit further to other people don't lead to possible discrimination. For example, if you were the boss of a talented woman, would you have a problem promoting her if that meant that you may have to have one on one meetings with her? Or are you thinking perhaps women should just stay at home so that men aren't put in that tempting position.
I know you didn't imply that in any way, but having been in business for over 25 years, I can tell you that I have seen these things happen and it's not good.
Ouch. I think I just got slapped in the comment world face.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm single.
ReplyDeleteYes, my friends dumped me when they got married.
And, yes, to do my job I have to have conversations with lots and lots and lots of men. It's called journalism and sometimes hearing a story in a phone conversation can be intimate. But at the same time, it's my job. Nothing thrills me more than when an interviewee gushes about a romantic song he wrote for his wife or how she lights up his life. I really love husbands being in love with their wives.
Sometimes it is easier to talk to married guys than single guys, I don't have to worry about trying to impress him or how I look to him or any of that stuff that's always on my mind with single guys. I figure the guy is head over heels for his wife and I'm safe. I guess after seeing my parents' marriage break up after my father's affair I think of married, engaged, and dating men as completely off-limits. Plus, I don't find myself as particularly attractive man bait.
Whenever possible though, I want to become friends with the wife of a male friend/professional contact, so there isn't a weird vibe. Frankly, there is lot to be gained from friendship with a married couple...and you never know, they could have a Jesus-loving single guy friend perfect for me!
A friend's a friend forever...if the Lord's the lord of them.-MWS [R.I.P]
ReplyDeleteThat said, I'd like to think that I would do everything and anything to protect the freakintastic gift that God has given me in my wife. I mean, she's pretty cool, but since I'm a stud anyways, I gotta be careful what situations I put myself in. I mean...where there's honey, the bees will follow.
To Anonymous @ 7:27 (and 7:29):
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologize for your concern. I deeply appreciate it. I understand that just because I don't think there's a risk (and I really, truly don't think there is a risk for a LOT of reasons), doesn't mean that risk doesn't exist.
I guess I do want to explain that "defining boundaries" was probably a poor choice of words on my part. I've had the defining boundaries conversation with my husband. The email exchange with my friend was really more of me clarifying a comment I had made about a particular conversation we had had (yes, which my husband was aware of), to ensure that the comment was not misinterpreted. This did involve us both agreeing that some conversations are better to have with same gender friends.
I so appreciate that you took the time to respond to my comment, and your follow up comment as well. It's so reassuring that Christians are looking out for each other and protecting each other from falling into bad situations. And it's nice to know that I'm being prayed for today. Thank you!
Oh boy, I run into this thing ALL THE TIME.
ReplyDeleteHere's an idea that solves 2 problems at once:
ReplyDeleteTake public transportation.
You NEVER have the "alone in the car" predicament, and you are saving money, the environment etc. Even in smaller cities, there are buses, trolleys, light-rails, and other systems these days. I, a single female, ride the subway (yes I live in NYC, so I know that pub tran is easier for me, but to be fair I took buses in chapel hill/durham NC too) with my married male boss, married male friends, single male friends and every other kind of person. You can still have great conversations (or mini-dance parties with an i-pod splitter and 2 sets of headphones) but there is no chance of being alone, or having anything sketchy go down. The interesting and diverse people you will encounter on public tran will keep you endlessly entertained.
no awkward + ipod dance parties + keeps al gore happy + save money + entertaining strangers = WINNER
Oh, you've hit a nerve. I worked in commercial construction management for 5 years. I was very conscious of not dressing in anything remotely girly, of meeting people's wives and getting to know them, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhen a co-worker got promoted to boss, he was always very uncomfortable meeting with me without the door open, and it made him nervous to have confidential meetings with the door shut. My only problem with this was that he and I had worked together until 3-4 in the morning way more times than I care to admit. Where it was just the two of us in the building. If that's acceptable, how is having a private meeting in an office full of people more likely to be a problem?
I always enjoyed hearing the unfiltered male perspective on things like pregnancy, and women. I really like working with men, they never were my primary relationships or friendships though, because that's where I know trouble lies. I didn't ask personal advice of married men. I agree if you act professional and not flirty, you can avoid most problems.
I guess I'm sharing experiences that I had as a woman working in an all married all men all the time environment :) I am going to say a few things I learned from the less-than-stellar people I met and spent time protecting myself from.
To the girl who says she's never thought of herself as man-bait, guys don't give a rip about that. If they're looking for sex, they don't care what the package it comes in looks like.
To some men, if you say "Hello," to them, they hear "I would totally have sex with you." Literally. I think that's a really crappy perspective to have, but that's the way some are wired.
If a guy (married/off-limits) is being flirty (I don't know how to judo-neutralize women :), you can either: 1. Don't respond to anything at all, i.e. use completely neutral tone of voice, ignore banter, no smiles for jokes at all, very little eye contact, he might as well be talking about the weather and you are completely bored with this ish. 2. Rip on him like you're one of the guys. I wouldn't recommend this one, you need to be able to take as good as you give, and most women aren't good at it.
Seriously, everyone should know how to avoid being flirty though. In conclusion, being a single woman and being treated like a leper sucks.
Girls, don't have close guy friends. It's ok to have guys to hang out with, don't make them accountability partners or build your weekends around them in any way.
I'm sorry I wrote a book, and if the plot got tricky, sorry bout that too :)
as of right now im a single guy but ive struggled with this throughout college.
ReplyDeletelike, if my best friend right now is a girl but it starts looking like something might be developing with another girl should my best friend and i stop hanging out? or was it just a mistake in the first place to have a girl best friend? or what is the defining moment when i can no longer hangout with my best friend because im in a relationship? dunno. not a big deal but definitely have been wondering about this kind of stuff for awhile.
I'm married and have no opposite sex friends outside the internet or with whom I have any social contact that doesn't involve my husband. Part of being married and committed to my husband means I take pains not to even create the situation where the "long fuse" could be lit.
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I both work in an industry that is very male dominated, but now and then he has to work closely with females, while I work all day every day with men.
There is a big difference between opposite sex friends and opposite sex coworkers. If a coworker had made the request you did to have someone other than me make an airport run, I would be really really really really offended. Just so you know.
I have several good friends who have addressed sexual addictions, and follow similar boundaries with the opposite sex. Awesome. I have not experienced that particular failure, but I still try to be careful and remember how sneaky and seductive sin can be.
ReplyDeleteI make a point of always making sure my wife knows exactly where I am. I call her when I'm at work, leaving work, going to the store, etc. I guess it's a little extreme, but I don't ever want to be in a period of 'radio silence' where my wife doesn't know where I am or what I'm up to.
I probably worry too much about it, since it's highly unlikely that I'll ever stumble across some troublesome vixen who's just hankerin' for some pankerin' with a neurotic, slightly overweight geek with glasses and a bad haircut.
After 5 years of marriage, I still can't figure out how I ended up with my hott with two t's wife, but I'm certainly aware of what a great thing I have going. My marriage is proof that God loves me and deals mercy, not justice (but he may have some kind of grudge against my wife).
With our common female friends, I don't personally have a huge issue. Would I give a gal a ride to the airport? Sure. Would I grab lunch with a female colleague? Yes. Maybe it's because I grew up with four sisters. I don't know. Sometimes I get the feeling that women see me more like the "gay friend" than the "potential predatory hook-up," which is probably accurate even though I'm NOT gay as my wife and child can attest. I don't know, maybe it's the HGTV and What Not To Wear. The point is, no one takes me too seriously in a sexy trouble way, myself included.
Sometimes if you can't help the situation, meetings, or whatever, I let my wife know what happened when I come home. It's better for her to know from me than find out something later.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nick the Geek.
I know sometimes people may think it's extra trouble or silly to do all these little things but it can save marriages. Emotions and feelings can really get to us and take root for the opposite sex. It starts with a thought, then downhill from there.
And I'm sorry, Alan, could you use the word anal anymore times?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to leave a different comment here.
ReplyDeleteThis just brings to mind that what we need to know/be acquainted with is our identity in Christ. That's all. Not rules and regulations self-imposed to try and enable us to protect ourselves and others. That's just self-righteousness.
"Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch" can't help us in any way, but actually aggravates our problems. So that's the point that needs to be dealt with. The root proceeds the fruit.
Its the book of Galatians (isn't it always?!). Those guys became committed to principles for living to do right, rather than the power of the Spirit through grace, working in new hearts, like they had at first. All it did was make them miserable with a constant sin-consciousness, guilt-consciousness, external standards consciousness,increased their sin and cut them off from all sorts of blessings. Might have made them look moral, but their hearts were hurting with everything that was tantamount to the sins they were trying to avoid.
This is not the freedom for which Christ sets us free. It's bondage and futility, the slave woman and her son that needs to be cast out.
Let's get our hearts under the power of real grace and the Spirit of new covenant glory. Anything else is just death.
I'm representing the younger crowd.
ReplyDeleteI'm in my early 20's and recently married and think this is a really important conversation to have early on in a marriage. My husband and I actually talked about these things when we were still dating, then more when we got engaged.
From the beginning we've been open about the nature of our opposite-sex friendships. I know for example, one of his best friends from childhood also was his first huge crush and he knows about the family friend I used to obsess over. We certainly didn't end any friendships once we became married and in fact we each made a point to get to know the important people in each other's lives. His friends and my friends are now "our" friends so that eliminates the problem of socializing separately.
Neither of us are in professional positions right now where there is a need to spend a lot of time with someone of the opposite sex, but I'm sure as our careers change things will come up. But since we've always had an open dialogue about these things it won't be difficult to have a conversation where we can be honest about what makes us comfortable, etc. I also know that no job will ever be worth making my husband uncomfortable and vice versa. Certain professions and specific organizations have certain workplace cultures. You can choose to avoid working in those places.
To the people who are knocking this post, perhaps you are perfect and not susceptible to temptation. But the rest of realize that there is always a slippery slope and open dialogue and caution can be beneficial.
i'm sorry, this is such a tangent, but thomas said "r.i.p." after quoting michael w. smith and i nearly freaked out enough to google him to see if he indeed was laid to rest. [whew] he is still, as far as i can tell from the search results, alive.
ReplyDeleteanyway. where the spirit of the lord is, there is freedom; and with freedom comes great responsibility.
that's a lot harder than setting hard and fast rules. . .
and i agree w/ anne jackson that transparency is key. i'm single but that has no bearing on the fact that openness (not to be equated w/ intimacy) in any relationship - friendship, parental, e.g. - is crucial. white elephants should be extinct.
such a good post.
ReplyDeleteso true.
i've been married a little over a year and i still struggle with it.
not with hanging out with the opposite sex but with giving up so many close guy friends who were such a big part of my life before.
i totally understand it and you're totally right but sometimes it's frustrating.
Shame on you, Jon. Shame.
ReplyDeleteYou're more "comfortable" with a guy driving you to the airport? In a work environment? (Yes, speaking at a conference is now, for you, a work environment.)
How about someday when you're hiring people? You feel more "comfortable" with a guy in the job? Is that what you're going to go with?
I work in a field that is 18% female, and aspire to work in a field that is 4% female. I have lost jobs I should have gotten because people felt more "comfortable" hiring a male.
Personal relationships, fine, everyone's marriage is different, everyone's friendships are different, work it out with your spouse, work it out with your friends.
But every example you gave in your post was a work-related example, *not* a friendship example. So shame, shame, shame.
I'm a huge fan of this site, but may I respectfully say it's time to act like a grown-up and stop living in fear.
If I were your female boss and read this post, I absolutely guarantee you would not be getting that raise at the end of the year. Why give a raise to someone who has just publicly announced he cannot have professional relationships with half the working population?
Dear "anon below my anon comment at 9.13am";
ReplyDeleteIf you were referring to me some at the end of your comment, my point was that the power for doing the right is not found in defining boundaries rules/laws to try and keep. That is counterproductive, according to the bible. Cf Col2,Gal,2Cor3,Rom7 etc.
If we're serious about wanting to bear fruit to God and have power against temptation, we should know that deliverance from law is the way. All such "principles for living" that we put on ourselves just show us how much we need a new and living way that is both freedom and fruitfulness. Deliverance from "responsibility", to the power of "Christ in us", "service in the new way of the Spirit", as "sons and not slaves".
Genuine freedom in Christ and genuine fruitfulness are flip sides of the same coin.
Can I recommend Joseph Prince, Rob Rufus, Bertie Brits and like-minded folks to you?
I recently had to "break up" with a female friend of mine because of a dating relationship I'm in, plus I'm a pastor so it makes friendship with the opposite sex doubley awkward and difficult. Even though this friend is a PK, she still had a hard time accepting the fact that its not ok for me to go out to coffee or dinner or couple's massages with her anymore (just kidding...we never went to coffee together).
ReplyDeleteWhile it wasn't the end of the world for me to lose that friendship, other friendships have been hard to let go. One woman in particular has been a good friend of mine for 14 years. We have no romantic history together and constantly describe our relationship as more like siblings than friends. However, being in a relationship that is planning for the future does not give me the luxury of having such a close friendship anymore. At some point I feel like we have to mature and become intentional with our relationships, whether they be romantic or plutonic.
Two questions I always ask myself are:
"Why am I in this relationship/friendship?" and "How would I feel if my girlfriend had a similar friendship?"
While it may be hard to realize, I've come to the conclusion that its just not worth it.
In reply to "Al and Ruth and Noelle":
ReplyDeleteI agree that a stranger who you're giving a lift to the airport to flirting with you is an unlikely scenario, but that seemed to be the only relevant one to Jon's post - this isn't someone he's going to see again; it's just a one-off lift to the airport.
"And besides, most people aren't *looking* to start an affair (unles they're really sick)." - must be just the ones I've known, then, sadly.
I think the best overall summary for me is "Know thyself. Stare full-on into your own motivations. Search your heart." (Anonymous, above) Search your heart, and keep searching, every day. Keep re-evaluating. Never take things for granted, especially trust.
I don't have much of a strategy, but my wife and I have some general agreements concerning how we handle our opposite-gender friendships. We keep each other in the loop about who we are meeting with and when, what we will be discussing, how long we will be, etc. It isn't easy, as you've pointed out.
ReplyDeleteI set pretty firm boundaries for myself, taking care in my subject and word choice with persons of the opposite sex. There are places I don't want to go, boundaries I don't want to cross, subjects I don't want to broach, etc. I want to have a friendship, but I want those friendships to be networked in such a way that I can refer my female friends to another woman if a sensitive subject comes up. I want to be careful when empathizing, careful when opening myself emotionally (or not), and careful NOT to send a wrong signal.
As you've observed, affairs don't occur instantaneously, so proper care and precaution is required. I want my marriage to last, and while I wouldn't describe my opposite gender friendship as now "awkward," I would say they require a different degree and type of care.
Last comment, to M-A and N.
ReplyDeleteHaving been someone who's "heart-searching" has almost killed him, I'm thankful that I seem to be coming to both an understanding, and gradually a measure of trust, of the real power of genuine grace. Not in sin-consciousness, but a consciousness of having perfected by one sacrifice once for all time (Heb10v14).
Law is the strength of sin (1Cor15v56). Any self-examination in that light, purposed to self-improvement and self-protection, kills, bringing sin and death (2Cor3). It's works-righteousness. It's what Saul found was useless to God,Phil3. He realized (Rom7) what that way of living led to. Sin having dominion over him...because...he was under law. The changed man says "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh"?
This is where everything is at, I'm convinced. This is the new covenant and life. Everything else is just not Christ and his gospel, with all its power.
Really interesting post, Jon.
ReplyDeleteMy general rule of thumb is to keep everything open. As a single, it's sometimes hard to ensure people don't perceive things badly, however I will act with a certain standard of decency. Open doors and such.
If people think the wrong thing, frankly, that's not a big deal however I have close friends who scrutinise my behaviour, and it's their voice I'll listen to, pretty much ignoring the perceptions of others.
I find it handy to drop in conversations that I'm happy being single, thereby making my intentions clear when it comes to the opposite sex.
I can't imagine what that will be like in the context of marriage though
Hi, my name is Karen and I am the victim of an affair. It's funny how these things happen. Neither of them planned it. He made negative comments about her and her appearance when she first started working there. Three years of commuting together one hour each way changed things, though. "I really don't like this new girl I have to work with" eventually devolved into a five year affair complete with "I want to divorce Karen and marry you," Hallmark cards (from him to her) in the mailbox(with explicit descriptions of their next meeting), and "I need to find myself."
ReplyDeleteThere was never a single day that he sat down and said, today on the way home from work, I'm going to seduce her. She never intended to be anything more than a co-worker. But they did end up in bed together and they did manage to hide it from me for five years.
They (I) never thought there was a problem with them commuting together. They're both going to the same place. It saves wear and tear and gas money.
My husband and I were fully committed to each other. We meant what we said in our vows. We trusted each other completely and we talked about opposite sex friendships all the time. We had a common pool of friends.
Don't be so very sure of yourself. It may start with something as innocent as a "look," or a quick glimpse of thigh in that flirty skirt you thought made you look sexy(cause that's the way we've been trained to think when we're getting dressed), or in the way he praised something you do that your husband hates. It doesn't have to be deliberate to be crossing the line. And you may not've realized you had even stepped near the line, much less jumped over it with both feet.
Yeah, I hear you. That'll never happen to me. I would never do that. My husband would never do that. We meant our vows. Right. Whatever.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Be skeptical. Be snarky. There, but for the grace of God, goes me. It can happen to anyone.
-Karen
P.S. Love Serious Thursday, too.
Great comments today. I think a lot of smart things have been said about trust and communication and relationships. When you write a blog you're not ending a conversation you're starting one, which means being willing to learn and be challenged and also be wrong. I appreciate that there are people that read this site and are willing to say "your idea is whack and here's why."
ReplyDeletejon
What about opposite sex friendships in dating?
ReplyDeleteI was actually engaged to a guy who was in a really close friendship with another girl. It really made me uncomfortable to hear that he discussed sex, me, our relationship with her. I wouldn't have minded at all if it were a guy...
He also constantly pointed out to me that he was closer with this other girl having known her longer. In the end I think that was one of the root causes of our break up. I wasn't her and I no matter how hard I tried I felt like I couldn't measure up.
I've been married for 11 years and I have worried about my husband meeting with other women and I'm pretty sure he has never worried about my having inappropriate relationships either. Partly because we love each other so much, that to do something that would absolutely devastate the other is pretty unthinkable. But to be completely honest, I have a feeling that we are both kind of nerdy people who have a hard time imagining ourselves attracting the opposite sex in that way. Not that he is that bad looking; he is just not that type of guy. I know a lot of people like us, married couples who are basically too dorky to be worried about affairs.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand people who are considered kind of hot seem to have anxious spouses. I would say that boundaries that married couples I know set about relationships with the opposite sex seem to have a direct relationship with how physically attractive they perceive the other person to be. You might be perfectly honorable in your intentions but your actions could cause stumbling for someone.
Also stay far far away from a member of the opposite sex if they are having marriage problems.
Billy Graham would not even ride in an elevator alone with a woman. He was above reproach in a profession that we have seen people fall time and time again in. That along put me into the "you can't be too careful" camp. What harm can be done by my being too careful? Absolutely none.
ReplyDeleteLooks have absolutely NOTHING to do with affairs - at least, not from the woman's perspective. My husband is an engineer and would describe himself as having been a "nerd" or a "dork" all his life, but he is kind and compassionate, funny and friendly. (And I happen to think he's quite nice looking, too, but he doesn't think so!)
ReplyDeleteSome woman who is single or whose husband ISN'T those things (kind, etc.) can easily be attracted to those qualities. Even the fact that he's a married man - a good husband, a good provider, a good father - makes him attractive to women who wish that's what they had. Neither the unsuspecting good guy nor the woman who sees something she's missing ever INTENDS to do anything wrong, but if you put yourself there often enough or think about something long enough...well, let's just say I've been there, and found myself attracted to men who aren't really physically attractive, by most standards, but who truly do have all those other qualities!
Don't kid yourself into thinking, "I'm not physically attractive, so I don't need to worry."
Thursday is absolutely right, opposite sex friendships always have a degree of awkwardness that same-sex friendships don't.
ReplyDeleteI'm single,and my very closest friends are girls, but even in my situation there's a lot of wisdom in maintaining boundaries in opposite sex friendships. There's one friendship in particular that comes to mind where we let things get way too murky, shared way too much about our feelings and struggles, and were giving each other relationship advice. Then one day he mentioned that he had a date and I knew from my reaction that I had to step back. So I did, and I don't regret it for a second.
I have very few guy friendships that are terribly close, but the ones that I do have I will probably have to pull back from once they marry or I marry, unless their wives are also good friends and they become couple friends. It'll be sad, but my marriage and their marriage is worth preserving. They'll make great husbands, and the last thing I want to do is stand in the way of that.
I'm a single woman with a lot of married friends, and thankfully, none of them have ditched me. I've also never really experienced the awkwardness that comes when a single male friend starts dating someone. When it comes to having friends in who are married/dating, the one thing I struggle with is jealousy (but that's another blog post...).
ReplyDeleteOne thing I've always tried to be aware of when it comes to having male friends is making sure I feel safe around them, especially if there's a situation where I'm alone with them. If I think a guy is going to put me in an awkward or compromising situation, I make sure to avoid being alone with him.
...Just one more, to Karen.
ReplyDeleteI'm really sorry that happened to you.
But I want to point out that the new-born heart is *not* deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. 2Cor5v17, Rom6v7 etc...
God's promise was for a new heart, not a gradually reconditioned old one.
All our problem with sin and temptation are a problem with not realizing our new covenant inheritance in Christ. Viewing ourselves after the flesh and not the spirit. Not laying hold on our forgiveness, past, present and future,viewed as perfectly righteous, blessed with every blessing pertaining to life and godliness, sanctified in heart by our deliverance from law, etc.
That's what the Holy Spirit as Comforter and Guide is working with in us.
The devil is the one using law against us. Deceiving us into thinking that because it's good,and because all the principles and tactics seem wise to the natural mind, that we must be under it to please God, gain his favour, bear fruit etc.
But God gave law for the opposite reason. To show how, when we lived by it, we couldn't get all those things by it, and we needed deliverance. A new covenant relationship that takes the devil's weapon out the way (Col2v14,15), making us new.
If folks want a revival of sin, preach law and principles for putting it into practice. Just don't mess with it to try and deal with sin or prevent sin. No Christian so learned Christ.
Best wishes.
I set boundaries with a female friend that we both crossed. We are paying dearly for it. Her birthday is tomorrow and it is breaking my heart that I can't call her. There are consequences for our actions.
ReplyDeleteExcellent topic
ReplyDeleteReal danger of meeting needs
Outside of marriage
http://ChristianHaiku.com
Anonymous 10:44 -
ReplyDeleteBeen there - exactly.
Don't call. Just don't do it. Stay strong, because it really is BEST for both of you! (I'll be praying for you tomorrow!)
I'm one of a few females in my area of service at church and sometimes I'm the only female serving that week. Its difficult to NOT have more of a friendship with the men than their wives since you spend more time with the men. Conversely, it can also be a little lonely or shallow relationally because you want to maintain a little distance emotionally. Or because of the amount of time you spend together, a spouse can definitely feel excluded. It can be awkward. Best to not make that your only source of friendships.
ReplyDeleteI love it! I've been married eight years. Early on we read *Hedges,* by Jerry Jenkins. While it wouldn't seem earth-shattering, it helped tremendously. During our first few years of marriage--we really felt like prudes. My husband would mention to people that he didn't want to have any friendships with women--that did not involve me, his mom or sister(s). That would inevitably turn to story after story from his peers on how such and such a friend is a woman and they don't see anything wrong with it. "We talk about God," was a common response. How can THAT be wrong? However: after seeing our pastor run away with his secretary (destroying the lives of 5 children between them), several friends divorce, and even just taken note of the quality of other married relationships. We've come to the conclusion that safe-guarding our marriage is worth whatever it takes. That is...WHATEVER IT TAKES. Even if that means looking like a prude.
ReplyDeleteI was home schooled. Being a dork doesn't really bother me anymore. (I mean, what could be worse than wearing matchy-matchy dresses with all your younger sisters…in 9th grade?)
I love that you brought up, "I've just always gotten along better with the opposite sex, that's how I'm wired." I get painfully annoyed when I hear that. I hear it a lot. I think it is a petty excuse for the jealousy and insecurity that can take place within the same sex.
On a side note, I think it's worth mentioning that I feel completely cherished by my husband when he turns down relationships with other women. Even when I feel like they could be beneficial to him. If you are sitting on the fence with the whole, awkward opposite sex relationship-thing. It's worth a little thought, and self-control. While I would like us to be able to have friendships with whomever we please, and not fall into temptation. I know that I live in a fallen world. And, I know my own heart is never more than a few steps away from doing something incredibly stupid.
I think one of the coolest things about Heaven--besides being with Jesus; will be having un-obstructed relationships with people. Pure love that is not screwed up with awkwardness, insecurities, and dishonesty.
But, until then...
Anon 10:42 -
ReplyDeleteDo you think that those scriptures suggest that after we have invited Christ into our heart that we don't need to repeatedly ask him to cleanse it of sin?
I think the key is simply not to be secretive.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that marriage has to end friendships across genders. Granted, this is under the assumption that you are operating under the actual basis of friendship and not with one of you having ulterior motives.
I think many of the friendships that are "lost" when someone marries has nothing to do with the gender, but rather the tunnel vision that comes from a newlywed. I can say with certainty I've lost more close relationships with guys than I have with girls(not that the friendship is lost, but the closeness certainly has been).
I've been friends with guys before they've gotten married and it's just not okay to maintain friendships on the same level with them. If you can't become friends with their wives, then you have to step away. It doesn't matter if you were "besties" before. he married his wife, not you.
ReplyDeleteIn work situations I think it's a good idea to keep asking those questions to yourself. "Is this okay? Should I have the door open? Chances are if you feel the nudge that you should open the door, you should.
I am a currently-single, formerly-married, hope-to-be-married-again woman.
ReplyDeleteI agree with GramCrackers on the professional part of this. There is a fine line, but we can't always avoid being alone with a coworker of the opposite sex. In my situation, I often pop into my (married) boss' office to tell him something and we'll start discussing a matter of business and he'll close his office door. No way to invite someone else into the room, awkward to ask that we move to a more public space.
On the other hand (I think), my now-exhusband attended law school while we were married. He started going to a classmate's apartment to study - a single, female classmate. When I found out and expressed my discomfort with the situation, he swore up, down and backward that there was nothing going on between them and did not understand why I said it was inappropriate for a married man to spend time alone with a single woman. A couple years later, he went to visit this woman - accompanied by another friend - at her new apartment in the town she moved to after law school. I learned of the visit by accident some time later and, while he still swore that nothing untoward ever happened between them, I will never fully be sure that he was faithful to me.
On the third hand, my best friend was at a function all day Saturday. I forgot and called her house and ended up discussing the football game with her husband. I considered going over to watch the rest of the game with him. I didn't go because I was lethargic...but maybe it would have been inappropriate anyway.
It's a difficult question in this society.
I'm a single female who has lost touch with several close guy friends once they got hitched. This was totally fine by me, especially since these are long distance friendships and we didn't really hang out in real time anyway. Plus I felt like that is what I'd like my future husband to do. Even now, in a committed relationship heading towards the altar, I don't feel comfortable hanging out 1-on-1 with a guy and feel the same about my bf doing so w/a woman. Just setting healthy boundary. Wisdom, maybe? I like what you said about the wick being a mile long...making WISE choices keeps the fire away, I guess.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of having to abandon all my male friends once they get hitched makes me really sad. (Okay, I realize you didn't say 'abandon'...but can't we just go out to lunch together? Geez, we've been friends for 6 years without ripping each others' clothes off...I think we can handle a chicken salad sandwich.)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, this is tricky. As I am not married, I cannot really offer much useful advice or experience. One of my best friends (a fella) just got married this summer and while yes, things are different, his wife doesn't begrudge me time to chat on the phone with him or grab dinner when I'm visiting (we live in different states). Frankly, as far as time visiting goes, I'm happy to hang out with both of them, because she is nice and knows I'm not the enemy.
I would hope that male/female friendships don't have to take such a drastic punch to the stomach every time someone gets married. Though I've had it happen with other friends, I don't think it has to happen with everyone. I'm perfectly happy for a male friend's girlfriend/wife to come along, as long as she doesn't spend the meal eyeing me suspiciously, like I'm bound to clear the table with a sweep of my arm at any moment and begin some provacative seduction routine. (I did have one such friend's girlfriend spend an entire meal staring me down like that. All I wanted to was to chat and eat my sandwich; apparently that was not clear.)
Anyway, this is a tricky issue. I suppose I'll have more explosive opinions on this if I get married, when my husband realizes how hott (with two ts) I am and doesn't want my male friends even looking at me without being inside a giant plastic bubble first.
I'm now going to read everyone else's comments and see if I'm wrong about this dynamic. Should be fun.
I believe Billy Graham wouldn't even ride in an elevator alone with a woman. He would politely get off and wait for the next one. Now there's a standard to think about. And since hearing it, I have often thought that's probably why his name has never been sullied by scandal and he is number 7 on Gallup's list of admired people for the 21st century. Little decisions can pack a punch when it comes to results.
ReplyDeleteEven being single, there are those awkward moments and times. We all just have to be careful. :)
ReplyDeleteWhoa, I usually just lurk here, but I have to chime in on work situations. It is insulting and completely unprofessional to treat women in the workplace as potential sexual partners, even if it's because you are trying to AVOID having sex with them. (Could apply to men for that matter, but this is usually affects more women just trying to do their jobs.) Have you, Jon, considered the awkward and possibly embarrassing position you put that woman in, since someone had to inform her that a client considered her a potential sexual threat? Because that's what "I don't feel comfortable with her driving me" means. Ugh. And it's no better to have a rule like "unless she's old enough to be my mother" since that's still all about evaluating her sexual attractiveness, which has nothing to do with work.
ReplyDeleteJon, I think you're awesome and love your writing and really hope you think this through.
Opposite sex friendships are another issue altogether, for each couple to sort out. And let's face it, colleagues don't have affairs without crossing professional boundaries first into intimate friendships or flirtation.
I agree. Boundaries are what help to build the hedge of protection around the marriage. I won't even add a male friend/classmate/coworker to facebook without asking his wife as well. Even wives I've not met. Usually I send an email sounding something like this: "I know I haven't met you, but I'm in class with Billy Bob, and I have this rule. . ."
ReplyDeleteSo far, I've met with 100% appreciation from the few I've approached with this.
hi everyone! i'm a Christ loving woman who's been wandering the world of opposite sex relationships and studying it very...very closely. in fact, i'm nearly finished with a book written to christian women about being friends and just friends with their brothers in Christ (it's called "storge: the forgotten love") and a close friend of mine (who happens to be a brother in Christ) has recently published a book written to brothers about being friends with their sisters (it's called "the art and science of finishing last: how to bless your sister's hearts and get away with it")
ReplyDeleteif you're interested at all in finding out more you can go to storge-love.blogspot.com to find out about the women's version and ninjagentlemen.com to learn more about the men's version. thanks so much!
Dear Anon at 10:42,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the condolences. I've moved on. God is a big God and He can even handle BIG hurts.
I appreciate what you're trying to tell me, but the heart, even the born again heart is wicked and no man can know it. If you think this is garbage, go back a few posts to where Jon mentioned Christians who exceed the speed limit - and think it's okay. Or take paper clips from the office - and don't think it's stealing. For real, we can and do justify any sort of behaviour we want. We can deceive ourselves to the point that we don't even realize that we are doing wrong anymore (and except for the still, small voice of God telling us otherwise, would live in those sins thinking we were okay.).
Please, all of you, single or otherwise, it is imperative that you learn the lesson from someone else's experience that you can and might well do things that you thought "Christians cannot do that!" They can and do. No doubt that they have to absolutely ignore the voice of God calling them, warning them, throwing obstacles in their way, but they still do wrong. And on "little" things, like going 5 over the speed limit, really, who is it hurting, right? shrug
You can scream "LEGALISTS" from the top of your lungs, but the reality is that Paul told us to not only not commit the sin, but not even have the appearance of doing something wrong. Hold ourselves above reproach. I appreciate that Jon is willing to chance being mocked for that. I am absolutely positive that Jenny is ecstatic that he is willing to do that. Even if nothing happened and the wrong person saw him in the car with a woman (not a relative), just a few words in the "right" ear would be all the ammunition needed to destroy every single bit of trust they've developed.
It really does matter.
Back to anon, again, thanks for what you're trying to do, but you don't have a complete handle on this. Btw, my ex wasn't a Christian. Otoh, I know and know of plenty of Christians who have crossed those lines (without even realizing they were playing near them) and have gone on to "bigger and better" things like full-fledged affairs. I have also known some Christians who've danced on the line and woken up and stepped away and told their spouses about it - in order to remain accountable.
Don't think that you or your significant other are strong enough as Christians that none of these things could happen to you.
On a sidenote, I really wish all you "anonymous" posters would get a login of some sort. It's hard to keep up with all of you and it's easy to shoot flaming arrows from anonymity. jus sayin
WV: trish - My stepmother's name.
1- My dad was a minister, and his rule was "if there is a woman in my office (regardless of the door issue), then the secretary doesn't leave". That protected everyone, and it was never an issue.
ReplyDelete2- I only wish my (ex)husband had listened to me when I told him to watch out for a specific lady in the office, and that it wasn't "just lunch". They're getting married this month.
3- Due to #2, I am now overly-aware of the friendships I have, specifically with the "husbands" in my small group at church. I would never want any of my friends to ever be concerned by my actions.
AV
If integrity or character is "doing what is right when no one is watching," why wouldn't you just ride to the airport with the person they assigned you, stay faithful to your wife, and let that be the end of it?
ReplyDeleteWhy does this even have to be a discussion?
We just went to my cousins wedding a couple weeks ago and her groom's "best man" was a GIRL. Let's just say, it was stressful! My cousin was riddled with anxiety because the "best man/woman" had an opinion about how things were to be done and what was best for HER best friend, the groom. My husband and I felt so sad and concerned for them. Two women, one a lover and one a best friend, is not a good plan at all!
ReplyDeleteI believe a husband and wife need to be in a close opposite sex relationship with each other ONLY! There should be flirting... with each other. It doesn't have to be FEAR based, but love based. I would not go have lunch with a guy friend because truly, my husband is the only GUY that I'd like to spend one-on-one time with.
I understand this is expecially tough for single people, but close relationships with a married person of the opposite sex is just not gonna work. We are built to be one-woman to one-man and once that "one" has been picked, it becomes exclusive.
This from a girl married for 17 years to an amazing guy that loves her and lives like that song... "For your eyes only"
I'm a single woman and last night I was sitting in the coffee shop at church when the husband of a dear friend came in unexpectedly and sat down and chatted with me for 30 minutes before his wife arrived. I found myself wondering if anyone around us might wonder what we were doing. I purposefully sat back from the table and spoke to other people I knew as they walked by. As a single woman, I was slightly uncomfortable. I wasn't worried that the man was hitting on me, but I don't even want to make it an option. He's attractive, we get along great, and I could forsee myself having difficulties keeping my thoughts toward him pure. So, I slightly withdrew and was relieved when his wife showed up. We were at church and nothing was going to happen there, but I can see how a lack of boundaries in those type of situations, over time, can lead to problems later. Better to be safe than sorry.
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:01, I think in view of the direction the comments are here, and that I'm a visitor, I should be courteous and not keep pushing this line. But yes, that's right.
ReplyDeleteFirst, respectfully, we're never told to "ask Jesus into our hearts". If you mean by that believing on him for our righteousness and justification, receiving the merits of what he did on the cross us, apart from works, and that in doing so he now indwells us in the Person of the Spirit...[forgive my wordiness!Just trying to be precise for the mo!)...
Then we have been cleansed from our sin. Heb10v14 says as much (see also 1Cor6v11). I don't mean we never sin, I mean the guilt of it, as well as been delivered from a "sin nature" where sin rules the roost.
Asking to be cleansed when we've already been cleansed is turning Christ's sacrifice into something that looks similar to the Old Covenant blood sacrifices that had to be continually offered because they could never take away sin, but were instead a reminder of sin because of it(Heb10).
If our right standing with God and thus our blessing depended on being perfect in all our works, and effectively asking him for cleansing from all our sins, then we're scuppered. What about all the ones we miss? And when one's "gone", there's always "one thing you lack". No good for a relationship with God. That's a law relationship, employer-employee, not Father-Son. I need surer ground than that. Justification by works is an impossibility, and not one God is encouraging in us.
Once cleansed, we are cleansed for all time. We did nothing to procure it, we do nothing to keep it, otherwise grace is no more grace. And this is the kind of grace we need for our hearts to move towards God in love, because he first loved us this way...
As to what Jon said in the post...surely it's a conscience thing. Don't do what you're not comfortable with. We'll tend not to anyway! and we can't begrudge somebody that, Rom14,1Cor8,10.
But we need our minds renewed with the gospel of grace that frees us up from guilty hearts and scruples concerning things not sinful in themselves. Surely all sin is, is a misuse of legitimate, God-given humanity. Acting out of line with love. Growing in grace will mean losing those scruples as well as gaining the right use of our humanity by the Spirit working in us to will *and* to do.
We should, with maturity in our identity in Christ, be able to not to have problems engaging with the opposite sex, real or just imagined...for example...
...I'm sure Jesus could both appreciate a woman's beauty, even if she was married, without sinning, as well as appreciating her company for the sake of her affection, without sinning. Like Mary with her hair and tears. I think we should be able to do the same, under grace. (Well not quite the hair and tears thing, but you get me ;0) ). We shouldn't have to be in a position where we have to deny reality and try to push away any sense of those sort of thoughts as if they must be coming from a wrong place...but they probably will be if we're trying to bear fruit to God by law...
Just some thoughts
Jon, I think you hit on a good point, because I know I have jealousy issues, and would appreciate my husband making those efforts with his friendships. A little security for the woman you love is appreciated, always, and I hope someday when I'm married my husband is considerate enough to take small steps to ensure he isn't in a sticky situation. However, it is kind of insulting as a woman to see that you avoid women professionally. If every man were like you, where would women be? And, maybe this is taking it a step too far but, if direct one-on-one interaction with someone from the opposite sex is unacceptable, where does that leave women professionally? Back in the 50s? How am I supposed to get a review with my boss, who is male, if he's looking at me as a sexual object? Should I ask for a woman to be there? Does it mean that every man looks at every woman as a sexual instrument and not a person? This has given me a lot to think about. I hope its given you a lot to think about as well.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm single, and my friends didn't dump me when they got married... but I wish they had. I feel like I've unknowingly hurt marriages, always getting along better with the guy. And that's NOT something I wanted to do, but I didn't notice until later. So now, if I'm not better friends with the wife, then I am not friends with the couple. Simple as that. And I don't think that you can be too careful when trying to guard your marriage from very real spiritual and emotional (or even physical) attacks. Even without having experienced marriage, I could not be more in favor of the sanctity of marriage! Whatever you need to do, do it. Like you said, better safe than sorry.
ReplyDeleteas a single male, i have a couple of really close friendships with women who have married recently, and for these girls in particular i view them more as sisters anywho, BUT i am always sure to not try to monopolize time with them, because they have a male best friend aka their husband.
ReplyDeletemost situations however i think it is best to keep a distance from married opposite sex-ers,
and it doesnt hurt i dont usually have a desire to be friends with married ppl anyways, they just arent as fun :)
And by "If every man were like you, where would women be?" I mean "If every man took this idea to the professional extreme like you", because generally speaking I think you're a pretty cool dude.
ReplyDeletesavinggrc,
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary. You need to take you're knowledge of the heart and identity of the believer from the new covenant scriptures. It's precisely because of a lack of this that leaves folks messing with law to try to bear fruit to God. And it's precisely because of this that sin gains stringth. Go and study out what the NT says about trying to live by the rules, what it says about law as the *strength* of sin, etc. It's precisely because we are totally helpless by ourselves that law can't help us. To try by the law, you're on your own. *But*, "in Christ", we have every adequacy by the power of the SPirit for life and godliness. 2Cor3v5,6. And when we do fall, the Spirit reminds us of the very basis..."There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are in Christ Jesus".
It's not self-protection and self-righteousness, by Pharisaical "behaviour-modification" principles to coral, that God's leading folks in, it's God-dependence under grace.
-Phil
Thanks Phil. I hate debate-anonymous. :)
ReplyDelete;o)
ReplyDeleteMy convictions are growing through my struggles...maybe the step after posting too politely with my real name is posting more boldly with anon... At least when you tend to get chewed up and spat out by some folks on some blogs! (I've never been here before).
Best wishes
-Phil
Three facts to keep in mind:
ReplyDelete1.) I'm female
2.) I'm married
3.) Most of my friends used to be guys
When I was single, I did have some friendships cool when my guy friends found girlfriends and/or got married. The best way I found to preserve those friendships was to befriend their ladies. I gained several new (and better) friends that I could discuss girl stuff with and I got to keep my guy friends to watch football and play sports with.
Now that I'm married, I treat my husband's female friends as just that- friends. I keep an eye on things, but I haven't ever had a cause to ask my husband to drop one of his friendships. I have done my best to include my husband in my friendships with guys and they get along great. My guy friends were pretty protective of me (kinda like big brothers) and they fully approve of the man I married. I didn't need their approval, but it sure makes get-togethers more fun.
My husband is my best friend. I'm his best friend. We trust each other and we *can* trust each other (on this issue) because we're open with each other about our opposite gender friendships.
While I do think that each individual/couple should discern for themselves what is appropriate, I have to say that once we start making execuses for why we 'have no choice' in interacting with the opposite sex, there's trouble. My ex-husband used that excuse. He was an elementary teacher and was in the minority of his profession. His 'innocent' friendships weren't so innocent which is why he is now my ex. For me, now, there are always alternatives. That's why there are car rental places, cabs, etc. When you think it won't happen to you or excuses are made, Satan sees an opportunity.
ReplyDeletefew things:
ReplyDeletea) i am single
b) i am female
c) i've worked in a church
d) i've worked with mostly men all my life
that said... this is one of the most frustrating topics to me. should we be appropriate with one another? yes, absolutely. should we be cautious of the relationships we commit to and the relationships we develop. absolutely. should we disregard our brothers and sisters and fellow human beings because we are married? i don't think so. so many single people feel rejected and alienated and dirty because of married people's paranoia. i honestly believe that respect for the relationships we are committed to has turned into neglect for everyone else.
i have witnessed, too many times, that caution turning into accusation and paranoia. i submit that the oversensitivity of this matter has perhaps created more of the problem than is actually there in the first place.
it's a terribly sad world we live in. that's the truth of it. i know too many amazing single women, however, who are shamed as potential homewreckers, simply for being who they are... female and single. that doesn't seem quite right or a justifiable thing either.
My husband of 2 years and I have decided that lunch with a friend of the opposite sex is fine, but dinner is too date-y. I'm of the mind, though, of "better safe than sorry," and if I question whether my hubsband might not be okay with it, then I don't do it.
ReplyDeleteDan and I are like minded on this issue. We have other couple friends but have warded off other socially awkward friendships. Here's what we do:
ReplyDelete1) We make out in church. We started doing this 4 years ago. It started during offering time and we all know that's chat time so we took it one, maybe two steps further, and here we are.
2) We always dress alike. Granted he's not a fan of sundress season but I make sure his back is waxed. We're there for each other like that.
3)We paw and groom each other like baboons. During the sermon, in Sunday School, in the parking lot. Touch = love.
4)We hold hands and swing them back and forth. We say things like, "I'm so lucky to have you!" and "No I'm luckier to have you!" We go back and forth like this till we fall in a tickle heep in the main lobby. I'm pretty sure people think it's adorable.
In all sincerity, everyone who knows me knows Dan and I are rock solid. We have couple friends, which is awesome. We have pepper spray and tasers for everyone else.
I am a single female who works in a field that is 90% male. They often think of me as one of the guys (not sure if that's good or bad). Through my work I have become friends with many men, and am close friends with one man in particular who is married. He is one of my closest friends now (for about 10 years) - kind of like the brother I never had. We have never had an issue with our friendship crossing any boundaries, but we have a few rules to make sure we are honoring his wife in the process:
ReplyDelete1. He never tells me anything that he wouldn't tell his wife, and he does not talk to me about frustrations in his marriage or frustrations with his wife.
2. Our friendship is mostly via telephone or at work, and we rarely spend time together one-on-one. Sometimes we'll get together for lunch or breakfast in a public place, and his wife always knows that we are getting together - when and where.
3. Although I am much closer to him, I am friends with his wife as well, and intentionally build a friendship with her. I spend time with their whole family, including their children, and make sure the kids see the friendship between their mother and me.
4. My feelings toward my friend are very much like brother/sister feelings - although he's a good-looking guy, and much to his horror, he is pretty much "asexual" to me. If that ever changed or if I ever started having feelings for him, I would end the friendship immediately.
5. I know that his wife is fine with our friendship. They have a healthy marriage. She trusts him, and she trusts me. If she ever started to have a problem with our friendship, we would end our friendship. I would never want to do anything that would hurt their marriage or dishonor his wife.
Jon, I'm with you on this one.
ReplyDeleteChances of adultery happening on that one ride: slim to none.
Chances of improper thoughts on either side: somewhat higher.
Even if you never saw that woman again, it could start that chain reaction for the "next time" in your mind or even in hers. There was an amazing article by a women who committed adultery in Discipleship Journal last year. She talked about the slow steps toward adultery. A flirting interaction with one person might lead to nowhere and be harmless. But it might go further with the next person you "harmlessly" flirt with.
Um, yeah, she didn't commit adultery in Discipleship Journal. She talked about her adultery in an article published in Discipleship Journal.
ReplyDeleteLol @ Stacey. Needed humor.
ReplyDeleteWhen we're told to love everyone, does that include trolls who post anonymously? Because...well, you know what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with Dee Dee. It is so frustrating being a single, Christian woman in the church these days. Being viewed as "dangerous" just because I am a woman and I am the reason that a man stumbles. It hurts me, and inhibits my growth in the church if I constantly feel like I am the one who causes the men to stumble. It goes both ways. And being someone who thrives on having one-on-one time with my friends, it is important to be able to just go have lunch, or coffee with a guy friend.
ReplyDeleteI have lost relationships with close guy friends when they have started dating someone else or gotten. Likewise have gained some awesome female friends as well when my guy friends have included me in that part of their lives. I think that it is important to be friends with your guy friend's spouse. It honors the friendship and their relationship.
I am good friends with a married couple in my church, but I am closer to him than to his wife. In fact, he has more female friends than male friends, while she has more male friends than female friends. That have such an awesome relationship, and such trust in each other. One of the biggest things is that they talk to each other and are aware of each others friendships of the opposite sex.
I love having close guy friends. They validate so much in me as a complete, daughter of God. Having a healthy, male perspective in my life has helped me to grow in my faith.
I would also say that I take the time to develop friendships with my female friend's boyfriends/husbands.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion when scripture talks about treating them like sisters it means that I am to look out for them as I would my actual sister This certainly includes telling them that I think they've made a good catch or to go ahead and toss that one back if required. Of course, that depends on how much trust they have in me, and so on.
However, recognizing that marriage is going to change the friendship is an intelligent viewpoint as well. Marriage changes everything about life, and all friendships are changed as well.
Wow, again, great comments today. I feel fortunate that people are willing to step up and challenge the questions and ideas on Stuff Christians Like.
ReplyDeleteAs I am apt to do, I don't think I was very clear on one of the points. With the conference I didn't feel comfortable having a college girl volunteer take me to the airport in the same way that I don't drive home our college baby sitter at the end of the night. That's all.
I think a lot of people had some good, just critique of this post today. I am a huge fan of that and as an imperfect person in need of a savior certainly have room to mature and grow. As far as hate though, I'm going to delete those comments. Especially anonymous hate. Those will get the boot all day.
Thanks
Jon
I should clarify when talking about a good catch or tossing them back, I'm strictly talking in the boyfriend phase. :p
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 2:24pm: Really?? You totally missed the point. Read the post again. It has nothing to do with discrimination - it's Jon's attempt to take the safe and high road to protect his marriage.
ReplyDelete(Don't worry, Jon - we got your back)
There have been a decent number of comments relating specifically to Jon's decision not to have a female driver that are rather accusatory.
ReplyDeleteI think we all need to be real here. I sincerely doubt Jon was saying he actually thought he might end up doing something inappropriate with that particular lady. There are at least two other perfectly reasonable things to consider though:
1. Temptation can be a slippery slope; if you allow yourself a moment of impure thoughts about one woman driving you somewhere, who knows what your next thoughts are going to be about that woman in the office, then that friend of your wife, etc... My husband won't watch certain commercials or even Dancing With The Stars so that he isn't confronted with images or thoughts he can't easily push from his head.
2. Perhaps Jon is being exceptionally considerate of his wife's feelings by this request.
I haven't followed this blog long, but I read the recent one where he talked about inserting his wife into every reply (funny stuff btw). Part of these behaviors is to let her know he really cherishes her and wouldn't cross the line.
My best friend is a guy and there have been moments where him dating another girl (particularly ones I didn't like) made things rocky, but I'm happy to say I'm going to be in his wedding in a few weeks and I am friends with his fiancee. I think that is the key when my guy friends get girlfriends and wives. Be friends with the girl too, so that she doesn't feel threatened.
ReplyDeleteAs for making friends who are already married. I know it will never happen. That's why so many couples are only friends with other couples. This makes me want to be a couple, just so I can hang out with my now attached friends, but one can't rush these things.
And there are some guys who it is impossible to be friends with. I have a guy friend who liked me, but I made it clear I wasn't interested. Now he is dating a girl who looks a whole lot like me and it freaks me out, which strains our friendship.
I do get along better with guys. I have three brothers and a great dad as well as an awesome best friend. But I also know that as I get older I am somehow going to have to learn how to get along with girls too.
Can the new page have a "bottom of page" button? Do you have any idea how long it takes to scroll all the way to the bottom on an iPhone screen?!?!
ReplyDeleteAs one of the commenters who was alarmed at the example, I appreciate the explanation and see that I didn't understand the situation you were in. True that extra caution is warranted when you're dealing with an age/status discrepancy. (Like teacher/student.)
ReplyDeleteStill, on the general point, I urge men not to disrespect women they encounter on a professional basis by introducing sexuality into the situation (even defensively), especially if it interferes with her job performance or advancement. If she's being inappropriate toward you, then by all means, avoid/report/whatever. But what thoughts may or may not be in anyone's head does not need to be addressed or known by anyone at work. Reminds me of a story I heard (can't recall details now, but it was when I worked in law) where a female employee was told (TOLD!!) by the Christian husband/wife owners that they had to let her go because she was too attractive to him. Unbelievably gross and a excellent way to get sued and lose.
Wow. I would be so incredibly offended, shocked, and a bit amused if a man felt that he couldn't be alone in my presence. I wonder how the lady who got bumped from the airport run felt?
ReplyDeleteWhy stop at female relatives? It isn't as if sex between relatives is not possible. Has no one else been watching the news lately? And, hey, people have affairs with members of the same sex as well.
I'm a lawyer and a woman. I have to talk to clients alone in my office with the door closed. The whole attorney-client privilege thing makes leaving the door opened a bit difficult and no one in the office has time to sit in on meetings with me because I can't be alone with a man. Believe it or not, I have not yet succumbed to the urge to jump on top of a male client and pull my clothes off. Ya know. Knock on wood. Also never had sex with the dads who drove me home after babysitting when I was teenage/college age. Miracles happen every day.
I just... don't get it. Sometimes I feel like a big thing that Christians like these days is making everything about sex.
I'm really shocked by the strong emotional response I'm having to this post, so I apologize for the overreaction. I suppose I'm thinking along the same lines as Janet - these attitudes have repercussions for women, especially professional women.
There's been a lot of talk about fine lines here. I think there is a fine line between this attitude and burkas and women who can't go anywhere without a male relative. These things didn't happen all at once, either. People kept saying, "how can we be more pure," and women took the hit, as we so often do. Gross. Maybe I just need a break from reading here.
Oh my gosh. I must add that my word verification was "fasorgy." Ahem.
I am married and have been for almost 8 years. I have stayed close with my SINGLE friends, it's been my friends WITH CHILDREN who are the ones who have upped and ditched me. A few made me feel inches tall because my husband and I are not able to have children and not "blessed enough" to be in the Mommy and me club.
ReplyDeleteI have friends of both sexes but almost all of my male friends are friends with my husband also.
From what i've read here, it seems that the focus is on the wrong issue.
ReplyDeleteYes, if counseling a woman, it may be prudent for a pastor to leave the door open. Yada yada.
But the fact is, if a marriage is strong & healthy there is no temptation to stray. If communication is good & husband & wife still share things & are each other's bet friend, if they still treat each other with love & respect, then there is not going to be any reason to have an affair. Who would do such a betrayal to their best friend?
From what i've seen, the temptation to have friendships with the opposite sex begins when the one person is missing that friendship at home. So what starts out innocently grows to something stronger because that deep need is not being met.
Yes, for some folks that means avoiding temptation. But the honest truth is: you only knock over a brick wall when the mortar is weak. If you have a strong wall it won't go over with a slight push. Keep the mortar in the marriage strong! Strong marriages are the best answer to this problem.
Yes, i was married previously 11 years. Then single. Currently married 5 years. To my best friend. He did not break up my first marriage, i didn't know him then. God gave me a great gift.
The blog Refine Us (http://refineus.org/) talks about how God restored their marriage after such "indiscretions" & how they have worked to negate the temptations by making their marriage strong.
One of my favorite pastors, Craig Groeschel of LifeChurch said it a lot better than I have. In a piece on integrity he wrote the following:
ReplyDeleteI try to place significant barriers between me and temptation. Build walls distancing you from sin – not from people. Nehemiah surrounded himself with warrior-masons and rebuilt the city walls, and they simultaneously watched each other’s backs.
Our leaders have agreed on a few practical policies that both protect me from temptation and set a good example for others:
I never travel out of town overnight alone.
I have zero access to the church’s finances.
I’m never alone with a woman besides my wife.
Two other people review all my Internet activity.
All outside ministry invitations are reviewed by others.
Leaders ensure I take enough time off to rest.
End quote
I think I could have done a better job writing this piece and not come off as if I was trying to put a wall between me and people, but rather me and temptation. Ultimately though, I want to stay active in putting a wall between me and temptation.
Jon
In my experience, the most vulnerable person is a smart intellectually curious man is married to a woman who only talks about clothes, food and gossip.(or vice versa) They are not looking for sex, just an interesting conversation so it's easy to deceive themselves. In my opinion, when a married person has "I'm much more happier spending time with this person than being with my wife(husband)" thoughts, adultery has already started. You don't need to have sex -or want to have sex for that matter- to make it an illicit relationship. And that kind of barely-legal sort of conversation can happen during a short ride to the airport.
ReplyDeleteI have a very secure marriage so I rarely worry about my husband but a person in my family is in a pretty miserable marriage where his emotional needs are so not fulfilled that I worry every time I see him having a conversation with another woman. I'm absolutely sure he would not have illicit sex but sexual attraction is not the only thing that makes opposite sex relationships a problem.
I'm single. I'm a female. I'm younger than many comment-ers (25).
ReplyDeleteBut I have good friendships with single guy friends.
And I have good friendships with married guy friends.
My ex just got married, and he is still a close friend.
I know that his email is open to his wife and that there are no secrets and nothing to hide, and there's no problem.
There are a few relationships I have where my close male friends have gotten married; we've stayed close friends.
We guarded our relationship when we were single, and so there are no bad habits to break now that they're married.
My married friends don't ditch me. Often, I become friends with their spouses. Even when the wives and I aren't as close as the husbands, they don't close the door on our friendships. I'll never email a guy if his wife doesn't have the password to his account to be able to read stuff. And anything we discuss without their wives present, there's an understanding that they'll tell their wives. I don't change the subject if their wives come in; I keep talking. The two are one now, and I treat them as such, even if it's not a conversation I would ever initiate with the wife.
My friends know, from when we were single, that I would only listen to their issues with their girlfriend if there were other guys involved in the conversation. I refused to be their only venting source. And when they got married, it wasn't a big jump at all to say that I would not listen to their problems with their wives, at all. A couple of times their wives have asked for my help with understanding their husbands, and I've given that. But that's my role now-- to help her understand him, not to listen to him vent about her.
If you're single and you set boundaries, you don't have to lose your married friends. Yes, I've seen marriages torn apart, yes I've seen affairs and divorces. And I've decided to not be a part of them.
They're married-- everything that's his is now hers, including our conversations and our emails and the right to come in at any point in our interactions. And if any of the wives ever asked that we stopped talking, I'd honor that.
But i don't give them a reason to ask, and they honor our friendship for that.
You know the old adage: prevention beats recovery. And I adhere to the mentality that the road to any sort of marital relationship issue is a series of short steps -- decisions that determine the paths that you go down.
ReplyDeleteIt's not just important to guard your actions for your own sake, but also for the sake of appearances. If you always make wise choices regarding time spent with a member of the opposite sex who is not a family member, then you have a greater chance of avoiding speculation, gossip or, under particular circumstances, temptation. Because what others see is not always what is -- something to bear in mind.
It is best to be careful regarding opposite sex interaction and especially to keep your spouse in the loop at all times. Because communication is just as important as honesty, transparency and wisdom.
Im hearing both sides of this discussion. However i thought i would throw a Jesus/Bible card in:
ReplyDeleteWhat about the example of Jesus? He was definitely alone with a dodgy woman at least once in his life (thinking about the Samartian at the well). His disciples were shocked because men thought they were too righteous to talk to women back then. I think in some cases not a whole lot has changed.
He also spoke to a woman who was caught in adultery. In those days she would have been stripped of her top as part of her punishment...so she was standing before Jesus half naked.
I know Jesus was perfect and we aren't and need to take steps to protect ourselves. But think about it- are you trying to protect yourself out of mostly self interest (don't want to hurt the marriage) or are you trying to reach out and do the will of God in witnessing to people? I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive but i am saying that following God's call on your life can at times appear to outsiders that you are behaving scandalously. I'm not expressing this clearly but i hope you get what i mean.
The apostle Paul also spent a lot of time with different women and valued them as part of his ministry.
I just get sick of guys projecting their weaknesses onto the scapegoat of females
I'm sure to get called out for this but as a woman I find this mindset very offensive. And I just can't read one more of these articles without saying so. I know, I know, many will label me as stupid or naive or a stumbling block or overly-sensitive or whatever.
ReplyDeleteI don't have the mad communication skills so frequently found on this site but I'll stumble through best I can.
I've been married 34 years. Had some good times, frankly had more hellish times. But through it all, good years and bad decades we've trusted one another. If there was a chance for stepping outside our marriage, it wasn't going to start over lunch, or in a car...it was going to start in my heart and mind long before; and if I didn't get THAT in check, then the danger would always be there no matter how hard I worked to manipulate my world to prevent it.
My dearest friend for years is a married man. He and his wife are among our family's closest friends and share alot of life together. Our spouses are certainly aware of our close friendship and the time we spend together. Our lives are very transparent and accountable.
In my work and also as a board member of several groups, I travel and meet with men quite often. Never any problems. Again, my spouse is always aware of what I'm doing and where I am.
And frankly none of it really becomes a problem until we get to the church. The mindsets there have the stench of legalism and sexism. The whole system is so male dominated, as a woman it becomes nearly impossible to minister/interact without constantly running into these legalistic roadblocks. You have NO idea how frustrating it is!! I wish you could understand how demeaning and insulting it is. I want to serve and use my gifts, but you run from me like I'm a Jezebel or a leper. I wish you could know the sincerity of my heart and how it burns to serve the God I adore on equal footing with the big boys.
I'm rambling now. This will be misunderstood and many will be eager to correct, but I can't sit by quietly in my hurt and frustration any longer.
Your descent into trouble started long long before the innocent car ride or the intellectual discussion over lunch...quit making me the scapegoat.
Thanks for listening. I hope you really hear the meaning behind my words.
@SARS: "I just get sick of guys projecting their weaknesses onto the scapegoat of females"
ReplyDeleteWell said. I also get frustrated with things like simple admiration of someone being seen as "a slippery slope". It's only a slope if you're ready to slide.
I feel torn, as a marriage therapist, I am all for boundaries, protection, accountability, and never saying "that could never happen to me." Yet as a single female, I am a bit offended when treated like I am dangerous somehow. For instance, one time I was talking to my missions minister (with his office door open) about a new project I was passionate about and he made a point of taking a phone call and telling me his wife was on the phone in the middle of our conversation. For one- that's rude unless you are sure it's an emergency. For two- I don't want to have an affair with you, don't flatter yourself- I am not even a little attracted. I just want you to hear me out. It's the little things like that- the avoidance, the weirdness, the random phone calls in the middle of conversations that just are not necessary to me. Sometimes it is just taken too far- I mean I am in the body of Christ too, I am your sister in Christ too. Like it or not, married men are in my life, they are my professors, bosses, clients and pastors. I need them for spiritual guidance and authority, protection, and encouragement and in reality, they need me. It is a fact of life. By all means use discernment- let them get to know your spouse, guard your heart, don't spend too much or too intimate time with them but why be weird when we don't have to be? There is danger in the other extreme too- in making singles feel totally left out of church (or in my case Bible college where there were few female teachers.)
ReplyDelete"I decided to request that a guy drive me to the airport. I just wasn't comfortable with the idea of spending an hour in LA traffic alone with a girl."
ReplyDeleteWow. Normally I like your blog, but I think you're so far off the mark with this - let's pretend, just for a second, that men and women can a) have platonic relationships and b) spend an hour in traffic without losing all self-control and shagging in the back of the taxi. Perhaps it's not 'awkward opposite sex friendships' that Christians like, but 'doubting the strength of their own relationship/willpower to the extent that they miss out on potentially rewarding frienships.' And that's just a bit sad.
You know, I sure hope none of the commenters you've replied to over the years have been female, because online relationships are just as dangerous as real life ones...
ReplyDeleteUH OH JOHN
UH OH
Sorry Jon I didn't realize that you had posted a comment on here clarifying, I should read all the comments before responding to the blog! I totally agree that the focus should be to build walls between us and temptation, not us and people. The only other critique I have is the never being alone with a woman part, maybe it works for you or for the guy you got it from, but as a therapist I can't do that- it would violate my client's right to confidentiality. There are positions where that just isn't possible because it requires private meetings (medical doctors, professional therapists, attorneys, and pastors to name a few.) Those positions all require extra accountability when it comes to heart issues. (and good liability insurance! because you could be totally in the right and be falsely accused- it happens and it can destroy a practice! But it is a risk you take on.)
ReplyDeleteTwo more cents:
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to clarify. I think the term "friendship," may be defined slightly differently by everyone. When I say that it makes me feel like a million bucks when my husband rejects an intimate relationship/friendship with another woman. I don’t mean that he doesn’t talk, or reach out to anyone. I guess he just does it in a different way…
There are a lot of guys that I get along fabulously with! It's not necessarily awkward. It's great. However...if I am going to fill my life with great conversation and insight--I would rather it happen through my husband. And, trust God to provide relationships that edify.
It's not that there aren't men out there that I wouldn't give my left kidney to, or pray with, or chit-chat with for a bit. It's just as a general rule...I don't seek them out. And, I guard both of our hearts.
There are lots and LOTS of ways to show brothers (or sisters) in Christ love--without compromising a relationship. We have people over for dinner often. We pray for people. We hang out...in groups mostly.
I understand that God calls us to different things at different times. And, sometimes decorum and boundaries get bumped. I’m just trying to go for the heart of this issue.
Anonymous Lawyer: you asked about how the woman who got bumped from the car ride felt. She probably felt bad. And, maybe, "Hey that guy really loves his wife." Who knows. I want to be more concerned about my husband's feelings at that point. Do you really think it compares with wearing a Burqa?
I guess the whole point is that we don't do these things to be saved. But safe (er). I wear my seatbelt too. And--sometimes I hate it, and it seems terribly restricting.
I think that maybe as a society we are too concerned with what we are *missing.* I'm so afraid of what I might be missing out on. Instead of concentrating on what I have to offer. That is, security for my husband. Friendship, for my husband. Intimacy, with my husband. If it really is just grabbing a sandwich with a guy friend. Or a 20 minute phone conversation. Or whatever enjoyable activities we're afraid of missing out on...what's the big deal? Why hold on so tightly?
I guess that's where the Holy Spirit comes in. We just have to listen.
Oh. And, I don't see single woman as a threat. At all. I see satan as a threat. And, my own human frailty. My failure can come in so many different forms. This is just one of many...
The bible tells us to run from sin. Not sit around and examine it. So maybe some people run from addictions. Some people run from gluttony. Some people run from bitterness and jealousy. This is definitely something that I just run from.
DeeDee: I don't think anyone is advocating disregarding fellow human beings just because we are married. Having boundaries means...you just have boundaries. Not that you build a bunker, get in it, and lock it up.
I'm always slightly uncomfortable talking to a married woman when her husband isn't around so I created a checklist for myself.
ReplyDelete1. Stand at least 72 inches apart so in the event of an earthquake neither party will land on top of the other and look incriminating.
2. Display slight irritation or boredom no matter how interesting the conversation is, even if she's talking about football, war stories, or comic books. Believe me, looking interested = "looking interested".
3. End every sentence with "...and I'm totally not hitting on you."
Examples:
"What did you think of the pastor's sermon?... and I'm totally not hitting on you."
"Your kid behaved wonderfully in Sunday school this morning... and I'm totally not hitting on you."
I just read through this whole huge comment list and was alternately horrified and gladdened by peoples' reactions as it went on...but JasonSix's hilarious parody at the end really made my night. That is GENIUS.
ReplyDeleteDeb -I Agree.
ReplyDeleteLegalism + Sexism.
Perhaps there is a reason it doesn't say in the Bible "thou shalt not share vehicles with members of the opposite sex. Neither shalt thou grab a sandwich, play the harmonica or have conversations of 3 or more (on an intimacy scale from 1 to 10, 1 being mundane small talk and 10 being soul-striptease intimacy)"
I know what Proverbs 4:23 says, and I think that genuine spiritual discernment is necessary to be able to behave with wisdom around members of the opposite sex. We would prefer a long list of silly rules than to seek daily the presence of God and be filled with the Spirit who will prod, convict and caution us in ways more subtle and complex than could ever be defined in a How to Not Have an Affair For Dummies Guidebook.
I also don't like feeling like this walking temptation. Feared and sometimes rejected and cut off. I don't dress immodestly, but I don't want to 'let myself go' and hide my beauty for the sake of acceptance.
I haven't read all of the comments on here. Has anybody mentioned the woman at the well and all of the other women whom Jesus befriended? At the Well he was talking (gasp!) alone with a woman... and not just any woman, but one with a dubious reputation. The disciples got all uptight about it... they kind of remind me of...
And let's not be saying' yeah, well, it was Jesus! Of course he wouldn't be fooling around! should we forget that He was fully human and tempted in Every Way as we are tempted? I didn't think so.
I feel like this comment is a bit jerk-ish. Luckily you will all forgive me...
I don't think the guys I work with even realize I'm a woman, that's how rockin' awesome my Honorary Man Card is.
ReplyDelete*smile*
I happen to work from home, and skype has been a lifesaver for when I need to have a face-to-face meeting with one man. It avoids a lot of awkwardness and frankly--is 10X more efficient than going somewhere for a meeting (or arranging a janitor to sit in). It's certainly not affair-proof, but it's a nice alternative that I'm thankful for.
Janet gave me much to think about in the 'work' realm... but at the same time -- a lot of affairs are work-related. So if the high road can be taken -- I'd take it.
I don't like being alone with men I don't know, but that's because I was abused and thus have issues trusting men. I like having the door open and someone in the house and no one between me and the door, just in case. But I hope to get over that someday.
ReplyDeleteI don't have other problems with members of the opposite sex. I have guy friends, and the reason they're such good friends is because I'm not attracted to them. Either because they're not my type, or because they're already taken. Either which way, I see them as who they are, not as male or female. Frankly, if you know you can't trust yourself, don't go there. But stop being afraid of other people and yourself - people can be trustworthy if you let them. I understand your dilemma, and it's true affairs don't start in a day, but do you really think you would end up having sex in the backseat of that car before the hours' drive was up? But really, it's not up to me to judge. If this is what you need, or how you feel best about yourself and your marriage, go for it. Everyone is unique.
That said, the only awkward opposite sex thing I can think of happened in church a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting with two good friends, who are married to each other. We were singing from hymnals and music books that day, and there were too few for the church so we had to share. Well, we had one book per three, so the middle person just held that, but when we came to the psalms (which are in a different book), my female friend turned out to have the music for the psalms in the back of her Bible. So then all of a sudden I was sharing a book with her husband, and thus breaking the unwritten rule that married couples share books and singles bring their own, or share with their single friends.
You might have to be Reformed to get this story.
Oh, and something else: by removing temptation from your life, instead of dealing with it, you're also deflecting your personal responsibility. And that is something I feel very strongly about. The quote you gave Jon from that pastor annoyed me because the rules he has laid for himself mean he's not responsible for himself anymore. I think accountability is good, but not when it turns into Big Brother is watching you.
ReplyDeleteTake responsibility for your actions.
Also, what do you imagine happening if you were ever alone with a female? Are all christians so obsessed with sex that they think anytime they're left alone clothes will start flying through the room? Sometimes the christian view of sex coincides with the porn one: utterly unrealistic. Go watch the Friends episode where Joey and Chandler get free porn and can't stop watching it, then are disappointed when everyday encounters (such as an office meeting or going to the bank) don't end in hott sex, like they see in porn. Well, the christian expectation of sinfulness reminds me a lot of this. With an added dab of sexism, which makes it even worse.
Okay, one more thing and then I'm shutting up:
ReplyDeleteyou don't overcome temptation by building it out of your life. You overcome temptation by saying no, every time.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all 153 comment! Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAs I have read through there are many saying "if your marriage is strong.... if you trust.... if you communicate.... there will not be a problem." Of course this all helps, but...
I am now at a very spiritually dry and lonely time due to circumstances quite outside our marriage. We have always had very careful boundaries, we communicate well, we have a great physical relationship,we are best friends and work together in full time ministry. I know in myself that if I was close friends with another guy at this point in my life I would be so tempted. My dh continues to be wonderful but we are dealing with so much pain and hardship.
Years of strong boundaries helps me be safe in this time of weakness and pain. I know this about myself and this helps me too. My dh was shocked recently when I said that I identified with a dear friend whose marriage is in trouble due to an affair (on her part).
I am not sure I am descibing this well, but I grateful to God that in this time of trial I don't have to fight off temptatation up close - I just have to keep the boundaries in place that have kept me safe for years.
Joy
I'm unfortunately with the many other women who were offended by this post and this attitude. Where is the personal responsibility? This is going to sound dramatic, but where's the line? This is the same attitude (taken to a different degree of course) that forces women to cover themselves from head to toe in Islamic countries - women are the temptresses and men cannot be expected to exercise sexual restraint...whether it be in the face of a woman driver or in the sight of a woman's bare ankle.
ReplyDeletePraise God Jesus was less afraid of what people might think.
@jasonsix--HILARIOUS!
ReplyDeleteJon, thank you for being open and honest about the boundaries that you have for your marriage's sake. My husband and I have learned from experience how valuable these boundaries are and it's encouraging to know that we aren't the only ones in the "Better safe than sorry, can a dude drive me to the airport" camp.
ReplyDeleteKMW
ReplyDeleteWhere is the personality responsibility?
Great question. The personal responsibility was me making a personal decision to take a different ride to the airport. I looked at my own life, my own boundaries and made a personal decision. I took responsibility for my actions and chose the action of asking for a different ride.
As far as offending you or anyone else, that was certainly never my intent. My wife and I had discussed before I went out there what we were both comfortable with. The decision we both felt comfortable with, after hearing pastors I respect like Craig Groeschel and Andy Stanley speak to little details like car rides, was that I would to the greatest degree possible not ride to the airport with a girl. In the same way I wouldn’t drive home our college babysitter at the end of the night, I wouldn’t get a ride to the airport with a college girl. So when faced with that decision, I respected the agreement with my wife. Of the two choices, possibly offending a stranger who might drive me to the airport or offending my wife by breaking an agreement we’ve made, I am going to choose my wife every time in that situation. Fortunately, one of the girls who would have driven me to the airport, thanked me when she heard of my request and told me she appreciated the example that set, so I felt OK about asking for a different ride.
I regret that some people have taken that as disrespectful to women, that was not my intent. My intent was to respect the woman I am married to and honor the commitment I made to her, a commitment that was a boundary we both discussed and felt good about.
I’ll write a follow up post to this one because I think people have made some good points that need to be addressed.
Thanks for the comment
Jon
It's ironic to me that as women we are so quick to lable protecting marriage and family as "sexism". Women will bash a man who cheats on his wife calling him "bastard" and worse. Yet here's a guy saying I love the women in my life (his wife and 2 daughters) enough not to compromise them in any way and we're still pissed? It's a double standard.
ReplyDeleteSo ladies I ask you this:
Do you want a man to love you and protect that love or do you want someone who is willing to compromise, even if that compromise is a tiny infraction?
As a married woman I want all or nothing and have to rely on my husband to know his limits, even if those limits don't make sense to me. (Further, we are just the readers of a blog. Though the blog is open to comments I don't think it's a forum to hate on someone's boundaries.)
I have no idea who will read this comment but please ladies, stop and think. Instead of mud slinging at a guy who honors a vow maybe we should be thanking him for setting an example of Godliness.
people are people. if you can get over the whole "she's a women, we were anatomically made to be together", you'll actually find that women can be respected as individuals just like dudes. crazy right?
ReplyDeleteFabulous, Stacy! Thanks for sharing - both your humor in your first comment, and your words of wisdom in your second!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if my comment seemed like I was attacking Jon's personal marital boundaries. The decisions between spouses are personal and should be honored. My frustration stems from a person's gender being a factor in a workplace decision. And the constant references to her as a "college girl" or a "girl" only seem to back up my point about the sexualization of this woman. If she had been old, it wouldn't have been a factor?
ReplyDeleteI respect Jon and love this blog. And boundaries in marriage are great to have. But there is a really fine line here between having personal boundaries and discriminating against women. And I still argue that saying "I need a man to drive me to avoid anything improper that may or may not happen" is only a matter of degrees from "all the women around me need to clothe themselves in burkas so I'm not tempted to have lustful thoughts about anyone other than my wife."
LOVE the hott topic! When I first read the blog, I had all kinds of things to say, but having read through the looong list of comments, I think it's pretty much been covered. (I'm a female sidelined in a male-dominated ministry.)
ReplyDeleteIf nothing else, this much is clear: this is a big issue, especially for Christians. We need to keep talking about it! Thanks.
KMW,
ReplyDeleteGood point on the reference to the person as a "college girl". You asked if she were old, would it have made a difference. I say absolutely.
My firm is in the process of hiring me a new secretary, and my wife would like the hiring process to include a scale. As in, she only gets hired if she weighs at leaast two bills.
I bring my 6 month old son along. He's been highly effective keeping me and my wife from engaging in anything remotely romantic (sure 10 out of 10 scientists say you can't get pregnant by looking at someone directly in the eyes, but that's not a risk I'm willing to take right now.).
ReplyDeleteAs a back up, there is usually a high probability that whatever I wear will have baby poop, pee or throw up on it. That also seems to do wonders in keeping things in line.
I might have thought that avoiding a long drive in the company of a random young woman was being too careful, until an experience I had a couple of years ago.
ReplyDeleteI was volunteering at a conference and the speaker I was to introduce turned out to be a man about my age. We had about 10 minutes on our own together before the seminar participants began to fill up the room.
During those 10 minutes it became absolutely clear (with no intentional flirtation involved) that we had many things in common, including our senses of humor, passions in life, professional challenges.
I found him attractive, and judging from his blushes, and a carefully worded question which confirmed that I was very married, I am sure it was the same for him.
During the weekend, he found excuses to speak to me a few more times, and each time our paths crossed during those days, it was an awkward combination of trying to be professional and appropriately friendly while pretending that nothing untoward could ever develop between us.
I was extremely careful not to give him the slightest encouragement, even leaving the conference a bit early (partly because he had encouraged me to stay longer).
And yet, even that minimal contact was so flattering and exciting that it became a huge spiritual issue for me, which I had to wrestle with for weeks.
I told my husband about it (uncomfortable but necessary), told a godly friend about it, and cut myself off from the normal continuing professional involvement with him which would have been expected.
If we had been driving to an airport together, it would have been a much longer and more intimate contact, which would have left an even more indelible mark on me.
The point is that we never know when we will meet a person who is a potential soulmate, or when a previously comfortable friendship will suddenly take on a sexual charge. Even if we never act on these attractions, they can still be mighty distractions from our purpose. It is sensible, faithful and godly to avoid throwing ourselves into these situations.
Whoa, I didn't realize there were so many women here responding. I had to go get my son to sit with me while I read them.
ReplyDeleteAs a man and a sinner, I'm going to put myself in the self-preservation camp. I strive to put up walls to prevent temptation and abuse.
I do agree that this is offensive and potentially demeaning. But I just want to point out that the one I'm seeking to protect myself from isn't the female. It's me.
Is that a joke, Anonymous 11:07? Wow. Leaving aside the assumption of what makes a woman automatically unattractive, isn't it offensive that your wife thinks you must be surrounded by unattractive women to avoid cheating on her? That you are required to evaluate the sexual attractiveness of *employees*??? (Thought bubble: Well, the rack is amazing, but her face isn't that pretty. "How fast can you type?" ) Christian women have really absorbed some messed up ideas. You never know who you might find attractive as you move about in the world - that's not where the problem is.
ReplyDeleteHAhah, well, reading this post and these comments have made me feel a lot better about myself, in that there are many other people, like me, who are totally uncool.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, opposite sex relationships have never been weird to me, and if this changes if/when I get married, then I think there's something wrong.
Maybe this is just something people in relationships have a problem with?!? I just....I don't get it, what's the issue here??!!
This reminds me of a story, I wish I remembered the details, but it was about a strong believer who was an NFL football player. The media gave him grief for supposedly being "rude" to fans (i'm talking skantily clad fans) This football player responded that if anyone was going to get their feelings hurt, it was not going to be his wife!
ReplyDeleteI loved that story, because it basically said, I'm going to go out of my way to respect and honor my wife above all else. Even if that means offending a few others here and there, that's the risk I'm willing to take.
I applaud you for not riding to the airport with that girl! Not because you were afraid you'd lose control, but because you respect and love your wife and as a way to honor her, you choose to live a life above reproach!
Jon,
ReplyDeleteGreat post. Apparently it really struck a nerve. I've never seen anyone shame a person thrice!
I do find it comical that people believe men can automatically turn off the predator switch when it comes to a "work" environment.
We should all strive to be professional obviously, but we are human, and simply because we are in an office we don't turn asexual.
I definitely don't think women, or men for that matter, should suffer professionally/financially because of another person's weakness, but at the same time, let's be real.
When you bring it up again, maybe you could also take a poll, based on age, of what percentage of people have opposite-sex friendships that aren't on a group level with their same-sex friends' significant others. Because I think the percentage drops drastically after college, no matter how much you were one of those "never will it happen to me, that was for my parents' era" sort of people, but I've never done anything beyond anecdotal research on the subject. And SCL research has to be at least one level up from that.
ReplyDeleteThe odds of this comment being read are slim to none, the list is just too long, but I can't not comment. Its too important.
ReplyDeleteI'm a single female under thirty. I'm intelligent and work in a respected field. I'm also a single mother.
This attitude is why I never am made to feel welcome at any church I try to bring my family to. Because the sinlge group is usually younger than I am and not interested in spending time getting to know a mom. And the married moms give me these looks that tell me they think I am immoral (as evidenced by having children) and am out to steal their husbands, corrupt their children, and sow discord in their church.
This attitude is why I can't set up play dates for my kids, why I never make friends in churches, why even the pastor isn't much interested in talking with me.
This attitude is why any christain woman over the age of 22 and not at a christain college has almost not hope of meeting, dating and marrying a nice, mature christian man. We can't be trusted. We are seen as dangerous creatures. This attitude is why I haven't been to church for months.
Thank you ever so much for putting me in my place. I know now that I am unworthy of being in the presence of a christian man.
forget the fact that I am kind and intelligent. That I am caing and have a strong desire to serve those around me. That often I am so busy and exhausted that I don't even notice the gender of the person I am speaking to. I am a woman with a less than perfect past. And so I am not worthy to get to know, to spend time with.
Maybe if a little modesty was among your many virtues, friendship would be more forthcoming.
DeleteSo, the entire city of LA driving by wasn't enough chaperonage for you? What was going to happen, you making it in the back seat of the car at a red light? Was there a danger you would decide to miss your flight, or make an assignation to book a return flight so you could get it on later? I'm afraid you've gone past merely "Puritan" into Taliban-like levels of creepy weirdness.
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