A friend of mine is starting a church and fortunately some haters have materialized out of thin air. I say fortunately because only ordinary things ever get full consensus from people. Doing something extraordinary should never make complete sense to everyone in your life. People will always support photocopies of what's always been done, but if you start something new, something different, you should expect resistance. (That last paragraph was the first time in months I've heard the faint whispers of the Newsies' "Open the Gates and Seize the Day." It's been too long Crutchy, it's been too long.)
When I called my friend and asked him how the church plant was going, he said that a member of the first church he started in the 1980s had written him a letter. In it, this former member that had not spoken with him in close to a decade said that he felt my friend was starting the new church out of ego.
Then, in what baffles me, he told my friend, who has a degenerative eye disease, that he was "Praying more earnestly than I’ve ever prayed in my life that God would destroy the rods and cones in your eyes so that you would go blind and only the sight that God gives you will be able to guide you."
That's not a direct quote because my friend's wife tore up the letter in a fit of justified pastor's wife rage, but the gist was that he was praying for the destruction of his rods and cones.
Wow.
That is crazy. Maybe this was just the angry ramblings of an 80-year old former minister who has lost touch with the whole love your neighbor thing. Maybe the letter writer just had access to a typewriter on a day when whatever bitterness that was bubbling inside of him had a chance to spill out. Maybe he's just a messed up human being like me, but whatever his reason was, that is one crazy letter. The really crazy thing though is that I think I understand what he was trying to say.
Sometimes, if you've come to Christ through some tragic circumstance like a death in the family or an all consuming addiction or a specific pit so deep only the light of God could find the bottom, it's tempting to think everyone needs to have that very same experience you had.
So you start to develop this weird kind of "brokenness pride." That sounds completely stupid and impossible, I know, but I think it's true. Or rather it's true of me. A few years ago I made some mistakes that no amount of intelligence or wit or temporary, "I'll do better this time, I can fix this" could remedy. In the midst of that, Christ grabbed hold of me.
And yet somehow I found a way to turn that into pride. I started thinking things like, "That guy hasn't been broken yet. Look how deep my faith is compared to his. He hasn't seen the depths of hurt or darkness I have and is still holding on to things I had to let go of. Maybe someday, he'll get broken like me and experience a real relationship with God."
Ugh. When you start to define faith by the tragedy that helped bring you there it's tempting to pray some really weird prayers. I wish I had a dollar for every time a parent has told me, "I just pray it doesn't take a horrible tragedy to bring my son to Christ. I just pray that when he hits rock bottom it doesn't kill him." The hard thing is that at the heart of that is a truth. I want people to know the love of God more than anything else in this world. So losing a job or going into credit card debt or a million other things that temporarily hurt is not nearly as important as missing out on a life-changing relationship with Christ.
But I don’t think that means you pray for someone's rods and cones to deteroiate. I don't think that means you pray someone goes blind. I don't think that means you identify a tragedy and pray that it befalls someone.
I think it's weird to pray for something bad to happen to someone so that they will see how good God is.
Fortunately, my friend who received that letter is smarter than me. When I asked about it, his answer was perfect. He told me,
"I'm not mad at the guy who wrote that letter. I just wish he would have prayed that God would have restored my sight and in that experience I would have been able to see His great love for me."
Pray for love. Pray that the people in your life will experience the deep, all consuming love of God in a way that only God on high can predict and orchestrate. It might take something big and scary to quiet someone's life enough so that they can hear the voice of God. That was my personal experience four years ago but I know my parents and my wife didn't pray for a tragedy to occur. They prayed for love and hope and God shaped that in the way that only He can shape it.
Above all, please don't tell that 80-year old rod and cone guy about this post. I'm pretty sure he doesn't read blogs and I don't want him praying I get in some freak cougar accident and lose all my typing fingers.
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ReplyDeleteI wish this were isolated, but it sounds scary similar to things I have heard.
ReplyDeleteMy pastor is suffering an ongoing problem with migraines. In short he has not had a pain free day in 10 years. There are more painful and less painful days.
People don't attack him directly though, instead they go after his wife. I have heard people say they believe she desires his illness so she can get pity or something and that is why he has not been healed.
The worst is a lady who prayed one day "God drag her through the muck and dirt and break her. Make her to crawl on her knees in the filth to teach her submission." In another time she "prophesied" nearly those exact words over the pastor's wife and in yet another case she wrote them a letter to that end.
The crazy part is the pastor's wife is very submissive, especially by today's standards.
I still felt bad when we learned that the hateful one has cancer. Like somehow my indignation towards her hate somehow caused it even though I never prayed anything like that on her.
That's our prayer life in a nutshell isn't it? More grace for me and mine, more nanny-nanny-boo-boo for everybody else. We just don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI've always had this lingering fear that something like that will happen to me. Not that I'll pray for something atrocious to happen to someone (though I'm sure I have), but that God will decide the only way He's really going to get my attention is cause me to have some horrible accident that will paralyze me from the neck down or blind me. I have no idea where I ever got this idea, but there it is.
ReplyDeleteI used to pray for God to break me until I realized how incredibly prideful that was. What I was saying was that I was such a difficult case God would have to use extreme measures.
ReplyDeleteWe have trouble wrapping our minds around the fact that God could bring the whole world to its knees in a second by whatever means he wants to--we look for whirlwinds and firestorms when we should be listening for the quiet whisper.
It seems that the "imprecatory prayer" thing has been on the rise lately. I'm sure it's always been around, but it seems to be gaining in popularity these days.
ReplyDeleteThat said, didn't Brother Lawrence in Practice of the Presence of God write that he wouldn't pray for a friend's illness to be healed? And of course, we have all of the Psalms calling down the fire of heaven on David's foes.
Still, it strikes me as strange in light of the cross.
Sante Fe, are you there? Do you swear you won't forget me. (Christian Bale's finest performance if you ask me.)
ReplyDeleteI'm still mulling this one over and haven't decided yet what I think about it. But to give y'all an insight into the heart of somebody who has often prayed sort of "destroy his rods and cones" prayers...When I pray for my adult prodigal son that God will make him desperately unhappy, I have in mind the situation of the parable-son in the pigsty. Perhaps I'm being presumptuous and trying to decide for God what it's going to take to get his attention...but then again I've been his mom for a long time and I know him pretty well. Actually, what I pray is, "God, do whatever it takes, but please have mercy and don't let it be anything that causes permanent scars." So it's a combination of pleading with the Lord to deal with him, pleading for mercy on his behalf, and--the weirdest part, maybe--sort of giving a mom's permission for God to go ahead and smite away.
ReplyDeleteThis is very strange. Nick, yours is appalling.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that maybe rod-and-cone-guy behavior comes from some sort of coping mechanism? The logic would go something like: "Why did I experience this trial? That really stunk. But God used it for good in my life. In fact, I got so much of God through it, that obviously God used the very best tool in his toolbox to work on me. (Maybe 'cause I'm super special!) So, if it's the very best tool in God's toolbox, it's gotta be God's very best for everybody in every situation. So whenever I see somebody who obviously needs to get some God, I know exactly what he needs."
Obviously this would take a particular blend of narcissism and profound lack of creativity, but maybe?
I don't think it's weird to pray these things for someone. The best interpreter is the Holy Spirit so He knows what I mean and "groans" to God the right interpretation.
ReplyDeleteI do in fact pray something bad will happen to my brother that will turn his life around
I think that I try to pray preventative prayers for my own life, like, Lord help me to have patience without bringing an annoying person into my life. Cause we all know that God uses that sometimes, so if we try to get those characteristics before problems help develop them, is that wrong?
ReplyDeleteMLT -
ReplyDeleteWow, that's a really interesting perspective that I hadn't considered. As a dad with a 3 year old and a 5 year old I have not had to stand on the parent side of the prodigal son story. I really appreciate the challenge of your comment and am glad you shared it.
Jon
The Newsies reference? Shut the front door, this IS the blog of the century!
ReplyDeleteThe rod & cones letter guy... whoahmygoodness. But I can't honestly say I've never prayed for awakening even with a high price. Because in the end, I don't want to love that person all the way to hell.
Blessings,
Carolynn
Better watch out, looks like you picked up a hater on the Catalyst article you wrote. Now he knows your fear is finger-robbing-cougar attacks.
ReplyDeleteOf course, since his comment seems to have missed the intended audience and hence point of this blog, maybe they'll misinterpret this as well.
Nice word, Jon!
ReplyDelete"They repay me evil for good and leave my soul forlorn." (Psalm 35:12)
Granted, your friend with the eye disease isn't forlorn, but the wicked and the self-righteous sometimes share a common bond - persecuting the innocent. Boo on that.
I think that this problem also extends to other "patterns of salvation. Reading this, I have been convicted of something similar. I was saved at a youth camp where there was an awesome final night (I know, I know). For years as a youth pastor I tried to recreate this night for my group, sensing that this was what would bring the kids to Christ. Finally, last summer, I gave up. For the final night, I didn't teach, I simply asked the kids to share something, anything. The Spirit moved heavy that night, and I didn't have to do a thing!
ReplyDeleteThanks Jon, for yet another barb o' love...
Y'know, admittedly, the years after the death of my husband have brought me closer to God than I could have imagined. But praying that something as awful as that would happen to someone else? Got to admit I am thoroughly creeped out here.....
ReplyDeleteI don't think I've ever encountered something as extreme as those unkind letters. That's really sad that people think that way. Here's what God's been teaching me. Pray the way God wants you to (BTW-I've never had God lead me to pray something bad for someone). And makes sure it isn't your own pride leading you. Because if you're not careful, you begin to see yourself as more important than you are. As if God isn't big enough to know exactly what to do in that person's life. So lately I've been praying "Lord, you know this person inside and out. And you know what will change them. So do what you do best. Change lives."
ReplyDelete@Jonathan Ferguson is right.
ReplyDeleteThe awful rods and cones prayer sadly shares its roots with alot of mainstream evangelicalism: Semipelagianism
When the point of church is getting people to make a "decision for Christ" and not on the sovereignty and love of God, the consequences are pretty far reaching.
Great post and kudos on the Newsies reference. I love that movie! I think it falls in that "movies that show the love of God better than the Passion of the Christ" category, lol.
ReplyDeleteI think the whole thing of trying to tell God what to do, whether to bring pain on someone, or to "teach" them by whatever means God "chooses" to use, is incredibly arrogant, as if we, in our utter ignorance (and arrogance and ignorance frequently go hand in hand), know that someone needs to be taught. We need to pull the plank out of our own rods and cones before telling God to stick a plank in someone else's rods and cones. In other words, we all need to MOOB. I don't tell God to do anything any more. God's big enough to decide these things for him/herself without my trying to give God guidance.
ReplyDeleteIsn't pride an insidious thing? Boy, it rears its head sometimes when we least expect it. At least that has been my experience. I can hate having pride in my life and truly not want any part of it and then, boom, there it is popping up of out of nowhere. I guess that's where we just have to keep fighting the good fight...
ReplyDeleteElizabeth, I have that fear too! It's a warped sense of if I don't do well enough on my own then the Lord is going to rain fire and brimstone over my head in the form of some sort of tragedy. Obviously this is not the case, but know you're not alone in having some weird fear of tragedy.
ReplyDeleteI think that while often times we are well-intentioned, our methods aren't the best. Sometimes it takes tragedy to bring someone to God, and I don't think it's wrong, when tragedy befalls someone, to hope that it shows them the light (while you're helping them). But I don't think praying for tragedy to befall someone is the best strategy. And if you do, don't tell them! Your intentions may be noble, but when you tell someone that you hope tragedy strikes, what they hear is "This guy wants me to suffer!"
ReplyDeleteBy the way, is it wrong that I pictured Jon being chased by a bunch of rabid, inappropriately dressed, 40-year-old women when I read the last sentence of his post?
We've heard that people who disagree with moving a family to the mission field abroad will pray that the family will fail in their post/assignment so that they will "come to their senses" and come home.
ReplyDeleteNuts, I tell you ... totally nuts.
Jon-
We used to read every single day ...but life has gotten busier for us - and now we cannot keep up.
So we pray that you will get writers block so we can more easily read every post. And that your writers block will draw you closer to Christ. ;)
No, we'll just read when we can. That seems logical.
LOVE your blog whenever I get here to read ... prayers for you and your family.
Tara
In the midst of praying about fertility options and asking for God's will for children in our family, I sent out a pray chain email explaining a few of our options and asking my friends to pray and please pass it on. A friend of a friend called me to express her disappointment in me for even considering these when God's approved option is Natural Family Planning.
ReplyDeleteI was attacked. Not only wasn't I a Mom. I was a terrible Christian. I tried to defend myself and explain NFP didn't work for me but I am seeing a Christian fertility endocrinologist and seeking God's will at every turn. It didn't matter. I was wrong and she knew God was disappointed in me. I hung up the phone and cried.
Then I got angry. Instead of praying for healing for me or understanding for her I prayed that she would one day go through the pain of infertility. *hangs head in shame*
I asked for forgiveness almost immediately but over a year later I still feel awful about it. She was just married last month and I sent a card congratulating her and wrote a prayer that God bless them with many children.
And I almost meant it. ;)
mit, I prayed that prayer ("do whatever it takes")for MY prodigal son, too. He got married and had a daughter born with all kinds of physical problems and she died right before her third birthday. He has never come back to the Lord, and sometimes I feel guilty for praying that. Not to mention how my own heart broke when my precious granddaughter died.
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying don't pray like that, just be prepared that the consequences can be heartbreaking.
He has his daughter's handprint as a tatoo on his wrist. I'm praying that it will make him long for heaven to see her again, but it might just make him mad.
I think that there is a huge difference in "God do what it takes to save their soul" and "God I have judged them to be too prideful so finish off the job with their eyes."
ReplyDeleteSometimes doing what it takes is pouring so much blessing on them that they must believe. Sometimes it is breaking them and sometimes it is letting an ass talk them out of going forward because an angel is waiting to strike them down.
I believe that a person truly praying for God to do what it takes shouldn't feel guilty if bad things happen. Those things aren't always the hand of God. It may well be the enemy using "sometimes life sucks" events to make you quit praying for the salvation of the lost.
Still, if I hear someone using their prayer or "prophecies" to tear a person down I'm going for the prayer block.
I can honestly say I have never prayed for awful things to befall someone. I -have- prayed that God find some way to get through to someone but left it up to Him what that would entail. I've often felt like Elizabeth when I pray that God bring me ever closer to Him that He will do something horrible like Take my Husband from me, or my eyesight or whatever. I've expressed that fear to God as well because I'm brutally honest with God. I think this stuff comes from the fact that I after I came to Christ in college I was mainly influenced by very fundamentalist evenagelicals who tended to be rather extreme in how they would approach things. I learned more about how to appear spiritual while harboring huge amounts of pride, praying in a santimonious manner telling God what -you- want rather than praying His will and that sort of thing. I still carry some of those twisted lessons with me but am slowly but surely breaking free from them. These people would pray in that manner...saying things like "Oh Lord, if it takes the suffering of Job we pray, Oh Father, that You would allow such suffering as a means to refrain his faith as Gold is refined by the fire!" Bleh! I never could get myself to pray that way or even say an "amen" to one.
ReplyDeleteI just noticed how totally bad my typos are, lol. I need to type a bit slower. (blushes)
ReplyDeleteI heard a sermon one time that God can only use those He has broken in ministry, so if He is calling you to the ministry you better brace yourself. And your ministry won't be effective until you are befallen by tragedy. I was terrified for years when my husband said he felt God was calling him.
ReplyDeleteLoved this post. You have such a way of making me laugh out loud...and then causing me to think. Brilliant writing.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's wrong to pray something bad on someone at all. HAHA! God is much bigger than that and what he wants above all else if for us to share our ENTIRE life with him. If I do not yell about the guy that just stole $400.00 from us then am I just keeping that part of my life to myself? Why am I not allowed to say "look God, I get that you're in control but I'd really like to see this guy feel sorry for what he did to us so... could you like... take $400.00 from him? Thanks! Amen"
ReplyDeleteIt makes me feel good to pray that, it gets the anger out and it's so not wrong. Now... if I were to write a letter to him and tell him that I'm praying for his financial ruin... that's probably not cool.
But, all of that to say, I think God is big enough to handle my anger at this man and when I do pray something bad will happen to him I imagine God saying "ok ok, simmer down. I'll handle it." :)
Thanks for this, Jon. There have been times in my life when I felt "cheated" because I didn't have some tragic conversion story. I grew up in a Christian family, became a Christian at the age of 9. (9 year olds don't generally have a great deal of tragedy in their lives.) I sometimes feel as if other Christians, who do have more dramatic salvation stories get almost "holier than thou" when they hear my story. It's as if they think I couldn't possible have a real relationship with Jesus. Why is my salvation less authentic because it's not born of tragedy?
ReplyDeleteI believe Romans 2:4 sheds so much light on this topic...
ReplyDeleteIt says that God's kindness leads us to repentance.
Great Post!
I have prayed a less obvious version of that. Something along the lines of, "Heal them if that is your will, but if it's not, show them your glory through their tragedy." It doesn't sound that bad, and that's the point. But I have pretty much already made up my mind about what God was going to do, and so I just softened it with an empty request for healing before I addressed what I already knew was going to happen. It's so easy to use your own experiences to put God in a box and therefore assume you know exactly how he's going to handle something in someone else's life.
ReplyDeleteSeems that this type prayer comes out of pride, anger,
ReplyDeletejealousy, hurt and frustration. The major thing lacking in it seems to be love. If we love our neighbor as ourself then would we pray for God to strike us blind so that we can see only Him. Some may and maybe this guy would. Who knows. I can totally relate to the pride thing of thinking someone needs a little tragedy in their life like I experienced in order to bring them closer to God. I think I was the one needing a little wisdom and growth in my life so that I could allow God to be God and not tell Him how I thought He should run things.
I've been involved in the Intercessory Prayer movement for about 25 years and we run into these Imprecatory prayers all the time.
ReplyDeleteWe call them "witchcraft praying". The essence of witchcraft is to pray curses on another person. What is this "rod and cone" prayer if not a curse? We are to "bless those who curse us" not to "curse those who need Jesus".
Thanks for calling this out.
LOOVED it!! I really appreciate this blog because I realized Im not the only one that thinks about these things (ha)!
ReplyDeleteAnywho...when bad things happen to people I have a grudge against I have secretly wondered if somehow I am the reason for their suffering...as if I am soo mighty that if I dont approve of someone neither does God (lol)...Hillarious..its fun to laugh at myself. All jokes aside this is a great subject to think about so....
Thanks Jon
As "Big Mamma" said, imprecatory prayer, that is praying for bad things to happen to God's enemies, has been getting a lot of attention lately. Some even praying for the deaths of abortion providers and even government leaders! Somehow, i don't think that's the praying for your enemies that Jesus had in mind.
ReplyDeleteRomans 2:4 teaches us that God uses kindness to lead us to repentance. So, i teach folks to pray that God would bless their unsaved family or wandering children, so much that they would be forced to acknowledge that God was blessing them. And that would be how God would save them.
Is it wrong to pray for justice? Absolutely not! But, wouldn't it be better for our enemies to become our Brothers and Sistes in Christ, and for Jesus' sacrifice to be the punishment for our enemies wickedness?
Another Newsies fan! I figured I was the only one left in the world!
ReplyDeleteSad to say, that 80-year-old preacher could be my grandfather. He's a man that loves the Lord, but holds to some pretty diheartening notions at times.
Wow, that is really troubling. Your friend had such a great response to that. I wonder what God thought when that 80 year old minister was praying that prayer for your friend.
ReplyDeleteLife is tough enough as it is, why pray for more heartache and tragedy?
That was very well said.
ReplyDeleteI know just what you are taking about. I don't want bad thing to happen to people I care about, but sometimes I think that is the only way they'll wake up. Praying for love is such a good advice. God is way more wise than us, He can decided what each person needs.
And I too heard some, "Wrongs will be righted. If we're united. Let us seize the day..."
KathyH, I'm sorry for your tragedy. We know what it's like to lose a grandchild also. For me that would fall under the heading of "permanent scars"--the sort of thing I pray God *won't* let happen to my son. But you know of course that it's possible for the Lord's kindness to be revealed in your son's life even through this terrible loss.
ReplyDeleteJenn's comment highlighted for me another type of rods-and-cones prayer that's a temptation for the parents of prodigals (or at least the really awful ones like me). I have more than once heard comments from people implying that proper parenting guarantees godly children and that ungodly children are a sure sign of some pretty pathetic nurturing/admonishing.
Well, what can I say to that? *Of course* we committed numerous parenting sins--that's obvious to everybody. But looking upon these smugly good parents with their sweet children, I've had the thought dart through my mind, "...Father, get a load of that attitude...And wouldn't it be a shame if he had to learn some humility by someday having all *his* parenting failures laid open to the scrutiny and judgment of everybody he knows?"
That one is, of course, pure unadulterated evil, and I offer no attempt to explain or defend it.
My, don't Jon's articles make us writhe and squirm?
In reading over the comments, i think that maybe we forget the purpose of prayer.
ReplyDeleteSo many folks pray for this or for that & sometimes forget that God & God's plans do not go by our whims, desires, or carefully laid plans.
Prayer is to bring us in touch with God, to bring us into alignment with his will, & to touch our lives in a profound way. Prayer is not the same as a child asking for a toy from Santa Claus.
God doesn't "do" what we ask or try to manipulate him to do. He molds us when we allow him.
Friends of the friendless seize the day!
ReplyDeleteRaise up the torch and light the way!
Proud and defiant
We'll slay the giant
Let us seize the day!
It HAS been too long. Though I always had a soft spot for Racetrack.
Kathryn @ 11:03: Excellent comment.
ReplyDeleteI totally get it.
ReplyDeleteI mean, no I dont want to pray for hurtful things for others but it was like when i got my heart broken for the first time and went through a bunch of stuff and my best friend at the time did not understand. So I just prayed we could settle our differences and stop our fighting and we have now, but she had to go through some of that same pain I went through.
But yea. its one of things we do. heh.
love the post.
Gak! I'm just been smacked upside my arrogant head! When I read the words "brokenness pride" I had a sick feeling in my guts that wasn't lunch related. I have never prayed for harm or hurt to befall another, but I have arrogantly sniped that because they have not had a journey similar to mine that they "wouldn't know Jesus if He bit them in the buns". OUCH!
ReplyDeletemlt, thou art wise.
ReplyDeleteI think the real issue with the "rods and cones be destroyed" prayer is that the old guy was so SURE that he knew what this guy needed to be doing or, in this case, NOT doing, with his church. Our prayers, it seems to me, ought to be marked by humility. Every single time. And if we can't think of words, or are too grieved for words, or too jealous for words, we ought to groan and move aside and let the Spirit intercede.
Kathryn, I very much agree.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if you're praying for someone to be 'broken' (though, as implied through my agreement w/ Kathryn, I don't really believe prayer works that way), you should keep in mind all of the people who turn away from God in times of tragedy. People are individuals, God's ways are not our ways, etc. (Insert your own cliche here)
This phenomenon of praying for someone to experience tragedy and be broken is completely new to me, and I'm seriously staring open-mouthed at the screen trying to fathom the arrogance of such a thing.
"Thats my cigar!"
ReplyDelete"You'll steal a-nuh-dah..."
Anyways:
That is an insane letter. In my head I picture God sitting in his chair up there staring at them while they pray these insane things. Then maybe he sighs and rolls his eyes when they are done.
I stand convicted with that heavy feeling in my stomach.
ReplyDeleteJust last night I was thinking of a friend who is identifying with & living an "alternative" lifestyle. I prayed that God would not let her find the love she so desires & every relationship she attempted would not work out. As I type this even now & reread my words I am brought to tears. I will repent & pray for forgiveness first & then pray that the love of Christ & her identity as his beloved so overwhelms her & becomes so apparent that all others pale in comparison.
Thank you, Jon.
References to Newsies make my heart glad.
ReplyDeleteAlso the "Maybe this was just the angry ramblings of an 80-year old former minister who has lost touch with the whole love your neighbor thing" made me laugh out loud. Yeah, the whole "love your neighbor" thing can be pretty important ... I also seem to remember Jesus talking about not bothering with specks in other people's eyes when there's a log in one's own, and not resorting to "eye for eye and tooth for tooth" when wronged ... things like that. Good post!
LONG LIVE NEWSIES!!! I love that movie!
ReplyDeleteSome time ago I wanted the worlds of my estranged wife and her surrogates that support her to fall apart so that they could find God. After reading T.R. Kendall's Total Forgiveness, I realized that it was far more biblical to pray that God bless them exceedingly and abundantly above all they could ask or think so that they could find God.
ReplyDeleteHe can be found in more than just the bad times.
I may have stepped in this one a few times. I can't remember for sure but I know I've been at least tempted. And the temptation comes from wanting to counter all the prayers that confuse Christ with Santa Claus. i.e. "Lord bless me with all the stuff" or "Lord, I pray you find a job for my cousin that pays a ridiculously high salary so that his eyes may open to the love you have for him." Deep down I think there are a lot more people on this 'health & wealth' gospel than will admit it. And I pray that God makes them all homeless so they will see the error of their ways. ;-) ...see how tempting it is?
ReplyDeleteoh man, it's so crazy to read this right now because I've been struggling with this recently.
ReplyDeleteOne of my best friends is extremely organized and plan-oriented. I am not. I have tried to convince her time and again that God wants her to be more like me and chill out. However, she still seems to think that planning out her life is a good thing. So secretly I started hoping (I wasn't literally praying, but close enough) that something would happen to upset all her "plans" so she could learn to trust God. Like me. Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened. The end result is that my friend is indeed trusting God (although somehow I feel that she had that capacity all along), but she also might not be returning to school with me. She has also undergone a drastic change in career choice. So now I'M the one who suffers by possibly not having my friend by my side all year....great. I'll have to be more careful next time I tell people to be more like me.
No wonder the world thinks Christians are weird. So sad that not everyone who professes to be a Christ follower actually is one and too many who really are don't act like it!
ReplyDeleteWe had a family that left our large church and joined on of our church plants. They used to pray every Sunday that God would interfere with the sound system (cue the sound guy neck crane) so that the church wouldn't become 'professional' or 'slick'. I don't understand this kind of praying. Why would you want stuff to happen in a service that just detracts from what people need to hear and makes you (and therefore the church in general) look like a bunch of inexperienced, technologically inept idiots.
ReplyDeleteI do remember years ago praying that God would bring a very self-sufficient, proud friend of mine 'to his knees' so that he would turn to God. I didn't want him to be destroyed, just to realize that in reality he can't control everything, that he doesn't have all the answers and that he really does need a Saviour. These days I hope, I think, I much more likely to pray for God's love to draw people to himself than for calamity! I think this has come through a deeper understanding of God and through the maturing experiences of life that have taught me that you don't need to pray for life to be harder... it's hard enough as it is and God's love is big enough, powerful enough and wonderful enough to woo us.
It scares me just how horrid, nasty and judgmental we Christians can be, especially to each other. I pray that God will help me to love others more and more.
My dad grew up going to a Christian Science church, not to be confused with scientology, where the belief is that any physical suffering or disability etc. is a direct result of "bad thinking". Similar to the thinking that your bad prayers always bring harm unto others, this belief simply isn't biblical. God made it clear that we live in a fallen world that is full of heartache and pain, often with no reason for it other than the fact that the world is imperfect.
ReplyDeleteI also think that praying someone experience heartache or pain as a mode of growing closer to God is like the earlier discussions of "you can't know God's love till you are married/have kids, etc" God's love can be genuinely experienced by everyone regardless of family situations, or how deep of a pit they were in before being saved.
wv: phati -what chubby girls pray the skinny pretty girl in youth group will become
@Steve 6:56, AMEN!
ReplyDeleteBeth, I too grew up in a Christian home and "formally" became a Christian and joined the church during confirmation class...like all good 6th grade Methodists. Informally, the knowledge and belief that I am saved is just something I've had for as long as I can remember, so I don't have that tragedy/defining moment either. I used to feel a little cheated too, until I heard a sermon in college that likened our spiritual birth to our physical birth: just because your mother had a text-book labor does not mean that your birth was any less joyous to her or any less of a birth than one whose birth was complicated. Likewise, your spiritual birth is no less joyous to God and no less of a spiritual birth because it didn't come from tragedy.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, the Newsies reference made my day! "Buy me last pape, miss? COUGH COUGH"
Three quick hitters here:
ReplyDeleteFirst, John, do a post on 'justified pastor's wife rage.' I would read it. Heck, I'd read a book about it. My wife is the best at this I've ever seen. She will let so much go, give so much grace, then, when the next knucklehead goes 'rods and cones' on me, she loses it HUGE.
Second, I'm just now getting the idea that everyone is as messed up as everyone else, just that some people either hide it better, or let Jesus work on them. One of my friends says he's never surprised by people sinning, it's just which sins and which people.
Third, way to be there for your friend. It's the best thing in the world for a pastor receiving that kind of 'refuse' to know there are friends around who can build them up and encourage them. Ministry is supposed to be hard (see: Paul, Apostle), but the only way people can hold up under the barrage is to have people in their corner when it gets bad (see: Paul, Apostle).
Great blog, great post. Razzle!
One step away from brokenness pride is brokenness envy:
ReplyDeleteSome of my Christian friends came to Christ after a mis-spent youth of alcohol, drugs and sex. I became a dedicated Christ-follower at 13 and was baptised at 16, so I missed out on that and now I feel some bizarre envy because now these guys can 'relate' better to the kids of today.
I actually feel like a less effective evangelist because I havn't had those life experiences. For this I partly accuse the 'testaWOAHny' that always happens at youth retreats. Of course my testaWOAHny isn't quite right. It's ok to talk about how I used to binge drink in church, but to talk about depression, porn and sexual depravity is somehow a Faux Pas.
Wow.. it's this just like us to think we know what's best for other people because it worked in our lives? We always try to play God, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 4:58pm:
ReplyDeleteTotal Forgiveness was a life changing book for me! I know I have my heart in a place God can use me when I can pray blessings over those who hurt me or over those I wish to see turn to God. I'm glad you mentioned this book so others might give it a read.
And Nick, my friend, knowing some of the pain and frustration you deal with in your job/ministry...I'm just so sorry you see the dark side of how we can behave and treat our brothers and sisters. But at the same time, you perservere and keep loving those God has given you to minister too. Being a servant can really suck somtimes, but you carry on. As always, I'm still praying for you.
@Honey (6:34)
ReplyDeleteOh, yes. I can't count how many times I've heard people pray that they would forget lines/have technical difficulties/be struck by stage fright so that the work is "all God." Drives me nuts. The work is not "all God." God gives talents and gifts, yes, but we nurture and develop them.
How is it God-honoring when we give so much less than our best -- or when we specifically ask that the work we've done will be nullified? That's not worship; that's just crazy.
Ooh, good idea. I have lots of people in mind to "pray for" now.
ReplyDelete