Sure, my wife and I went to pre-marital counseling. Are you kidding? We wanted to start our marriage on a solid foundation of communication and respect and love. It was great working with that counselor to really understand the differences we bring to this relationship and how God can use those to create oneness in our hearts and our home. That's just what you do before you get married. Every Christian knows pre-marital counseling is critical.
Post marital counseling? Is that what you're suggesting we do? Who told you our marriage was in trouble?
It was Frank, wasn't it? Ugh, that Frank. Plank in his eyeball! Our marriage is fine. We're happy, things are great. Sure we have ups and downs like any marriage but unless my wife has had an affair, secretly developed a secret credit card debt or has some sort of weird willow tree figurine habit that I don't know about, I don't think we need to go to post marital counseling.
We don't need maintenance. The principles we learned during pre-marital counseling became magically cemented in our souls when we put our rings on in front of friends and family members. Those lessons we learned had a 60 year guarantee. I feel like our pre-marital counselor might have mentioned that we needed to continually work on the strength of our marriage and nurture our love continually with a great degree of intentionality, but it's weird because as soon as we got married, those things just naturally started happening without any discernible effort on my part. Pretty cool, right?
And plus, everyone knows post marital counseling is the last stop on the "your marriage sucks" train line. It's where you go when your house is on fire, or there's some sort of relational komodo dragon that's come between you and your wife. It's not somewhere you go for a tune up. I wouldn't even know who to ask to find a counselor. The minute I did, people at church would whisper about us and pray for us because they'd know things were dire.
Nope, I'm good. I did all the learning I needed to do before the wedding ceremony. After the ceremony it was time for living. See that? That was alliteration. Learning vs. Living. How could I possibly need counseling when I'm able to alliterate at that level?
If anything I should be giving other people counseling, in how to be awesome.
So, so, SO, glad you wrote about this! I'm not married yet (or close to it), but I can't imagine anything more important than protecting a marriage.
ReplyDeleteAlso, relational komodo dragon? Priceless!
YES!
ReplyDeleteI've gotten to the point that I tell my engaged friends that post marital is more important and necessary than pre...(because no matter how many books you read... no matter how many times you hang out with godly older couples... no matter how much pre-marital you go to...nothing can ULTIMATELY prepare you for actually living out a marriage with your spouse) In Post-marital, you get to actually talk about real,current stuff... not just the hypothetical future (which when you are engaged is tinted oh so rosy!)
And you are absolutely right that there is an element of shame to be in the Church and "seeing someone." We need to change this! Way to go Jon!
We are solid and 2 of our marital highlights were parenting counseling (our styles were different), which got us together as a "united front" and Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University which ...got us together on a "united front". Both of those things ended up actually being couples counseling. Like Dave Ramsey says "Debt is the symptom". Seems like marriage counseling comes in when it's too late for so many. We are thrilled we ended up doing these things. Thanks for the reminder that good marriages take some work, but bring so much pleasure!
ReplyDeleteHow could I possibly need counseling when I'm able to alliterate at that level?
ReplyDeleteHa! You make me laugh so much.
I'm not married, nor am planning to be, nor have been - but something tells me that this was a good post!
Bill Hybels talks about how "vision leaks"-- that the way that we are constructed, or as a result of the fall, it's inevitable: if we don't get recharged, or refilled, or whatever, we will run out.
ReplyDeleteI think that's a great way to look at the way we are made: we can't simply be filled up once with knowledge and expect that we're going to retain it forever.
"Love is Blind....but Marriage is
ReplyDeletean Eye Opener"
To become fruitful in a deep way and to work out the reality of "Oneness" of marriage, is a deep mystery that becomes tangible and real as we cherish our vows and preserve & embellish Oneness. Marriage is actually a wonderful journey ...Par excellence !!
filled with flat times, high times and everything in between.
Counseling helps us get the pebbles out of our shoes!
Not married, but I could definitely use some counseling in "how to be awesome." I wonder what sort of coursework that certification requires...
ReplyDeleteMy fiancee and I are in the middle of pre-marital counseling right now and it's pretty easy, even now to slip into the "We're already so rock solid and holy and quoting Ephesians Five all over the place" territory. Thanks for reminding us that the learning doesn't end at the altar.
ReplyDeleteLove it. As a marriage and family therapist, I studied the effects of pre-marital counseling and it basically says why pre-marital counseling works is b/c couples get accustomed to finding a counselor, going to a counselor (easier when the stigma isn't there) so that they feel more comfortable going to counseling when they need it (married). Not as much what they learn in pre-marital counseling, but the process (a favorite word of therapists :)
ReplyDeleteI blame the fact that we live in a fallen world.
ReplyDeleteWe've been married twenty six years. Early on I believed that by this point our relationship would be on auto pilot. After all, if you've been together twenty six years you know everything about each other right? It all comes naturally right? Eh, not so much. We work hard at it. Harder than ever. Looking back, the easiest year of our marriage was year one. Yes, year one. The year everybody tells you will be your most difficult.
ReplyDeleteHmmm.... My parents are about to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. Does that mean the warranty is about to expire?
ReplyDeleteThey've never been to counseling. They raised seven kids, lived well, loved much and laughed often.
If I want advice on how to make my marriage work, I think I'll ask them and not go to someone who read about it in theory.
Jon, when this popped on on my Facebook this morning I was thinking, "Jon, how could you." I'm so glad you took a lovely sarcastic (that WAS sarcasm, right?) approach to a topic very near to my heart.
ReplyDeleteMy ex and I went to premarital counseling. You know I went to plenty of, literally, post-marital (as in after the marriage ended) counseling. Other than the pre- bit, she and I never did an together. It's a travesty. More marriages would have lasted if post-marital counseling had been a part of them earlier on (not just as they fell apart).
So how do we start this trend? Successful marriages that seek counseling, not just the dying ones? I'm on board, and will be doing it the next time I have the chance.
I'm gonna be spending a year with two college friends as they begin to head towards marriage. I hope to bless them and help them both form a Godly marriage.
ReplyDeleteThanks for reminding me that this task is not over when I watch them say 'I do' in my tux that matches the grooms.
I wanna be a friend that's in for the long-haul.
This is the way I explain it. In most jobs you go to school for 2-10 years to be qualified for the job. After that if you want to do well you will read trade journals and attend classes on the job you are well educated for and do everyday.
ReplyDeleteIn fact many of these careers require this continuing education if you plan on continuing in your job.
In our marriages we spend a few weeks at best preparing for marriage. More time is spent planning the ceremony and honeymoon than preparing for the marriage. Then we think we can do it on our own until we know there is a problem.
When you know there is a problem it is often too late.
My recommendation for couples is to read marriage books together regularly and attend some kind of marriage class or retreat at least once a year. I also suggest occasional counseling (1-5 years) when things are going well.
yeah. right.
ReplyDeletewhy didn't i have this wv for my last comment?
ReplyDeletewv: humbut.
I would go further to say that almost any type of counseling is frowned upon by many church goers. Unfortunately, the mindset often is that, ‘If you really had Jesus, you would not be having the sort of problem that requires counseling or therapy.’
ReplyDeletePraise the Lord for the times that he completely heals your heart and mind before you can finish saying ‘amen.’ But sometimes, he wants you to go on a journey to healing, and that is good too.
So I am guessing "Love and Respect" by Eggerich(sp?) was one of the required reading books for your counseling. What are some other good books?
ReplyDeleteSome other books: "His Needs, Her Needs." And of course, the classic, possibly controversial "5 Love Languages," Are there really just these 5? "Men are from Mars, and Women from Venus."
And maybe even "Green Eggs and Ham."
What would be even more odd is if I found out my future husband had a Willowtree collecting obsession ... I'll pass thank you :)
ReplyDeleteSo true! The Church really needs to stop attaching a stigma to getting counseling. Counseling is for EVERYONE, not just couples in trouble. Maintenance is a Must. How's that for alliteration? =)
ReplyDeleteI love this! My husband is getting his master's in counseling right now, and he said once when we were talking about the stigma on counseling, "I think anyone who's been affected by their own sin, the sin of someone else or the brokenness of the world can benefit from counseling. But hey, if that's not you..."
ReplyDeleteI've got that weird willow tree figurine habit! Yikes, this is serious!!
ReplyDeleteHahahaha... My husband and I had a couple who mentored us while we were dating. We read all the recommended reading, and went to pre-marital counseling. And I still ended up calling our pastor three weeks after we got married and yelling for help.
ReplyDeleteCould be a record, that...
And for the record-ha! I'm really glad we did. We thought we were great communicators while we were dating but there is a definite difference between fighting with someone when you can go home and cool off, and fighting with someone who shares your bed.
HOWEVER: I didn't tell anyone but our pastor how hard the start of our marriage was for a long time. Didn't want to break the blissful-married-couple myth.
I think this is where Sunday School classes and small groups can/should get involved. Go through a marriage strengthening book as a class or small group. The stigma is removed and you can build your marriage as well as other relationships within your group. Win/Win.
ReplyDeleteThat darn Frank. We need to do something about him...
ReplyDeleteThe pastor who married us got divorced a year later. Go fig!
ReplyDeleteED! Can I get you to email me your folks' number? I need to ask them a question or two. Te-he.
ReplyDeleteActually, the two counselors that we talked to during the first round of counseling were hitched, so they had some idea of what they were talking about.
Never had a problem telling people we were in counseling because I believe it's wrong to keep our struggles to ourself. It's how these stigmas stay stigmas. We need each other.
That said, the second round didn't work. And now I need to start pre-divorce counseling.
Just had this conversation yesterday with 2 other ministry wives! My hubby and I did pre-engagement counseling (great in Campus Ministry), and have sought counsel on a couple of other occasions when we were going through big transitions.
ReplyDeleteI think the beauty of a good counselor is the ability to ask good questions. Sometimes in my marriage, I don't know what the right question is, or I simply can't communicate it in a way that isnt hurtful/disrespectful/accusing, etc.
The tide seems to be changing a bit in the church, but we've got a way to go before there's no stigma with "getting counseling".
What is the average number of years of issues (?!?!) before a married couple will go seek out counseling? The average I believe is 3 years.
ReplyDeleteHaving gone through marriage and divorce, that stat rings true for me.
There was one couple that God put in my life. I was discussing about getting together with the husband and I remarked, "Let me know when is a good time for you. I don't want to meet up on your date night."
His response, "What is date night?"
Instantly, that stat hit my head. So I am walking through how to seek out days of rest, weekly set times to reconnect with his wife and taking getaways once of year all based on Scriptures.
I am not saying date night is the end all to be all but clear, transparent communication is. God doesn't have to totally fix a broken marriage in order for Him to get all the glory. When a marriage never has to face those bad times, He still gets all the glory.
"if anything i should be giving other people counseling, in how to be awesome"
ReplyDeletehilarious.
also, i'm just going to go ahead and say that i believe i'll need that counseling even after i get married. if i can admit it now, when i'm not even engaged, surely no one will judge me then, right? right?
Honestly? I just came over here to read Beth's comment.
ReplyDeleteDang it, Frank!
And yes. You are Mr. Awesome. (snort!)
My husband and I have taking marriage classes because we had a good relationship and wanted to make it great. I always felt like I had to explain that (and still do). I would get wierd looks like they didn't believe me. It's sad there's so much of a stigma with it. Your marriage is important, you should pay attention to it. BTW, We went through the Fireproof series and it was awesome, would recommend it to anyone!
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I were mentoring (separately) a young couple who were about to be married.
ReplyDeleteOne conversation between me and her about two weeks pre-wedding:
Me: And when S disappoints you...
Her: blank stare
Me: He WILL disappoint you, you know.
Her: Okay, I'll trust you, but I just can't imagine it...
TWO MONTHS LATER:
Her: (Crying about how hard marriage is)
Me: Do you remember when I told you he WOULD disappoint you?
Her: Did you say that?
THIS is why premarital counseling is not enough. Often you don't know what you don't know... until you know it.
Darn you, you got me thinking and using my brain! Thinking is a very dangerous habit, donchaknow. Darn you! Darn you to Heck (the place for people who don't believe in Gosh)! ;) Seriously, today's entry is incredibly thought-provoking and addresses an issue that definitely needs to be talked about. I wasn't even consciously aware of the stigma on post-marital counseling, or that I'd bought into it, until I read today's post. You totally rock and keep up the fabulous work. I'm not married yet, but whenever God sees fit to send Mr. Right-for-Me my way, I'll definitely have my mind open to post-marital counseling as a way to keep things going well so we don't need it later on because things have gone sour.
ReplyDeleteI've been handed the 'if you truly trusted God/had strong enough faith, you wouldn't need medication/assistance/outside help' garbage and I wanted to throttle the person saying it. You're told that we're fallen and weak and can't do things on our own, but if we do anything other than pray 24/7 for deliverance then suddenly being all those things and getting help because you can't do it on your own is a bad thing. And going for counseling if there's not a problem? Horror! Aghast-ness! Godly people don't need help because they can handle it, just them and God. Admitting you're weak and going to talk to someone to help you handle what life brings opens the door to the enemy to come in and undermine things. If your marriage were strong you'd never need help and God sure as anything wouldn't have you seeking out others. Go it solo, my friend! That's God's way! [/sarcasm]
One great piece of advice I've gotten from my married friends is get counseling, pre and post marital. When the time comes, I'm definitely investing some serious time in preparing for marriage, and learning/discovering how to be married once the wedding is over.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I would total go to you for awesomeness counseling. :)
Thanks for another awesome post Jon. This is something that hits home for me. My husband and I have been married for 6 years and started counseling a few months after our 4th anniversary. We only told a few people in our own family because of the "if you had enough faith, you wouldn't need counselling" stigma. But we've encouraged other couples we know to see a counselor (post wedding) because it's so worth it to work on your marriage.
ReplyDeleteOur counselor actually "dumped" us in February telling us that we'd worked through a lot of what brought us in the door and gaining the tools to work on things better for the future. We know we'll be running back to his door for tune-ups as needed. In the meantime, we get a lot of teasing from our friends that think we're more affectionate than newlyweds. It's just the absolute joy of walking through really hard stuff and growing closer instead of ruining our marriage in the process.
Our pastor has said something along these lines (paraphrasing), The people that think they don't need marriage maintenance are the very people who need it. I think he's also said at one time or another, 'If you don't seek marriage maintenance regularly, your just stupid' He always says things like that in a joking sort of way but everyone knows what he means.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, as usual. Marriages are under attack. Today's society has "dumbed down" the concept of what marriage should be, and it doesn't help that paparazzi shows prop-up celebs that go through relationships like they are leased vehicles.
ReplyDeleteMarriages should be valued as much as your own life.
I've been blessed by being married to my bride for 14 years. We've had many struggles, but we always talk things out.
Pray for marriages!
Ed, I've never been to a marriage counselor who just knew about it in theory. They all knew about it in practice.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletepost marital counseling is for people who want a successful marriage.
ReplyDeleteYes, Pre-Marital is good and seems the only "acceptable" counseling preached from the pulpits these days. I think the old "you are a Christian so you have to stay married" notion has been blown wide open by the 50% divorce rate among Christian marriages. Telling someone not to do something does not work, or at least not in our culture. More and more churches are beginning to see that counseling, especially from a Biblical perspective has something to offer.
ReplyDeleteAND, Premarital counseling SHOULD BE MORE THAN FINANCES, TAKING OUT TRASH and any other benign topic...it should be about the heart, real issues, past abuse etc, which will ALL come up after the marriage is entered. But more importantly, post-marriage counseling can help each person realize that to be one, they MUST BE THEIR OWN PERSON!
Great blog as always!
Mike
Stinkin' Frank...man.
ReplyDelete(...and I've heard awesome lessons are quite pricey.)
I think most couples don't pursue counseling or tell others of their struggle is because of the gossip mill. Granted not all circles will throw you to the dogs that way yet there are plenty that will. Many times we don't share our pain with each other over this issue. It's all about loving others like Christ instead of like Judas.
ReplyDeleteWhen are you available, and will you do sessions in Canada?
ReplyDeleteGreat post, I think chiasm would be a more description than alliteration in this case, but what do I know. I surely don't have your level amazing awesomeness achieved, alliteratively or otherwise.
Hilarious! But so true. If I had my way, I would go to counseling everyday- alone or with Husband. And then I would make everyone I know go too. We all need maintenance.
ReplyDeleteBecause of the economy, I took a part time job that required that I work on Sunday mornings. This means that I go to church on Saturday nights. The funny thing that we found out is that our marriage became an object of discussion because we attended two different services! We were entertained by this, and when my schedule was changed to eliminate Sundays, we considered putting on a little Sunday morning drama for those 'concerned individuals' who made us a hot topic. In the end, we did not follow through, but the thought of it made us chortle more than once.
ReplyDeleteWe have been married 28 years, and have gone to counseling a number of times, some professional and some pastoral. We have read books and attended classes and seminars.
Whatever you invest in your marriage will come back to you many times over. If you are really struggling, and you have to pay for expensive, but good counseling, just know that it is still cheaper and less painful than divorce.
Thanks for the laugh!
ReplyDeleteLaughed even more when I saw the word verification:
nodymate: a spouse who refuses to go to post marital counseling.
After yesterday's blog, I think of my marriage counseling as a visit with the exterminator--she helps us fumigate and clear out the spiders from our marriage, our lives. It keeps us on the "right" road and the longer we go, the better and stronger we get at spotting and killing our own bugs!
ReplyDeleteHaha, before reading this post I was up in my room for the past Four to twelve hours reading the Five love languages for singles. Then I come to this? I Think the Big Guy is tying tell me something.
ReplyDeleteWe went to our marital counseling today, and we're so grateful for a godly person willing to take us under his counsel. We've tried to find someone to help us for years, and we were just given the "standard" little marriage 5 week marriage coaching. This is more personal and this is what Jesus' love is like.
ReplyDeleteJon, you're hilarious and relevant.
That's why I never got married. Too much $*@(#) counseling.
ReplyDeleteI often wonder...how did marriages ever survive before counseling? In fact, how did we survive as a civilization before therapists?
ReplyDeleteIt seems that pop psych has conditioned us all into thinking that forking cash over to a shrink is a vital ingredient for a normal life.
Sorry, Jon...normally I agree with your posts, but I'm gonna beg to differ on this one.
Post marital counseling is essential. But, for it to be sucessful you must be honest. My husband and I went for "maintenance" counseling, but we were in real trouble. Both of us were so conditioned to keep up appearances that we kept them up to the counselor too. We're still together but after much heartache and tribulation. I wonder what it would have been like if we were honest with the counselor 4 years ago?
ReplyDeleteon a lighter note:
wv: manailsi - the only condition under which a man would get a manicure.
Amen to this! My fiance and I have been out of the "honeymoon stage" of our relationship a while, but we're still not married, and know that we will face a LOT of stuff during our life together. So why on earth wouldn't we want help and counseling to do that, even if it's just problems about laundry days and simple communication?
ReplyDeleteI've noticed that people are much more excited (and anxious) for your relationship BEFORE you're married...but nobody bothers to check up on the couple four years down the road. It's assumed the couple is "just fine", and they "just got married", and that's supposed to be code for a decent marital status.
"Relational komodo dragon" -- I love it!!! We have several of those, and the first counselor literally gave me nightmares (in addition to not giving particularly Biblical advice), and my husband has refused to make an appointment with another one, so maybe I'll just climb a tree or something. Can komodo dragons climb trees? Maybe I can just sic a worship eagle with wicked-awesome talons on them.
ReplyDeletePost-marital doesn't always work. It depends on how good a counselor you have and if both parties are willing to talk. My wife and I went to counseling in 2001--my idea, not hers, she went reluctantly, she does not like to talk about her feelings or anything serious, intellectual, or spiritual. We had a terrible counselor--a pastor on the side, btw. He was clueless and said some things that I almost slugged him for; I almost reported him to the state licensing board. My wife dropped out of counseling before I did. We're still together but there is little intimacy of any kind. Marriage does not get easier over time.
ReplyDeleteThere is no need to ask whether premarital counseling is for you or not. The answer is always YES. Pre-marriage counseling is a psychological counseling given to couples before marriage. It is given to prepare them for and make them aware of possible marital issues that they may encounter in their marriage. Premarital counseling is very important to strengthen a couple s relationships and constructively prepare both individuals, especially while they still have plenty of positive energy in their relationship. Find more information about the premarital counseling from this site.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marriage-counselors.net/
I am absolutely in favor of divorce counseling because every one should have proper knowledge even you are going for love marriage or arrange marriage because after marriage issues not easy to handle for this one's should go for per and post divorce counseling.
ReplyDeleteThanks
Rayan