(It's been a while since Hucklebuck has written a guest post, but if you've ever read the comments on this site you've probably seen his name. Well today, I'm excited to introduce you to Mrs. Hucklebuck or Stacey if you prefer. I love this idea she wrote and I'm really glad that both the Hucklebucks are so talented.)
After I read the SCL post dedicated to singles and several of the comments calling for a similar post about married couples without kids, I have compiled a scorecard of my own. Although I’m admittedly not as funny as Jon Acuff, I have written this post after years of discussions with my single friends about how hard it can be in both of our situations on any given Sunday.
I do realize that the following list is from the perspective of a couple whose desire is to be parents, and that not every married Christian couple feels the same. My situation involves infertility and recurrent pregnancy loss, but I’m guessing that many of these can apply to people who have not yet had children for just about any other reason.
So, if you’ve ever found yourself discussing intimate details of your fertility with a sweet old lady at church, read on!
Surviving Church as a MCWOK: Married Couple Without Kids
(with thanks to Eric for the term)
1. If you’ve been told “It will happen someday.” = +2 points (+10 bonus points if the person touches your face while speaking these words.)
2. If you’ve ever been told to “Just relax,” or “It will happen when you stop trying,” which is not physically possible. = +2 points
3. If you’ve ever been asked to “volunteer” in the nursery on Mother’s Day so the scheduled worker can enjoy the service. = +3 points
4. If friends with kids invite you over and you wind up babysitting their kids the whole time. = +1 point
5. If friends offer to let you spend time with their kids for some “family time” or to get your “kid fix.” = +2 points
6. If people offer to give you their kids if you want some so badly. = +3 points
7. If you can’t attend a church potluck without being asked about your sex life and/or personal doctor visits. = +3 points
8. If friends tell you that spending time with their misbehaving kids will change your mind about wanting your own. = +1 point
9. If you find you’d rather skip the Mother’s Day/Father’s Day/Sermon series on the family services at church. = +2 points
10. If the term “family” at your church always refers to Mom+Dad+Kids. = +2 points
11. If it is suggested that if you prayed hard enough or had enough faith, you’d have children. = +3 points
12. If you’ve ever been told that you are so “lucky” because you can go on vacations, go see movies at the theater, or sleep late. = +3 points
13. If you’ve been told that you should really enjoy your road trip because “at least you don’t have kids to entertain in the car.” = +1 point
14. If you’ve heard countless stories of people who have adopted babies and then miraculously gotten pregnant. = +2 points for every occasion
15. If you’ve been asked “Why don’t you just adopt?” (As if the decision is as easy as picking out a new toothbrush.) = +3 points
16. If it is assumed that you will work VBS every year because you “love being with kids so much” and probably have nothing else going on. = +1 point for every year you have worked VBS
17. If people assume that you sleep until noon every day. = +2 points
18. If you tell people you are a homemaker and the first question they ask is “How many kids do you have?” = +1 point
19. If it has ever been suggested that you aren’t as “blessed” as others just because you don’t have children. = +3 points
20. If you have had people tell you about dreams and visions they’ve had of your future children. = +2 points for dreams; +3 points for visions
21. If your “personal prayer request” about trying to have a baby gets printed on paper and put in the hands of every person in attendance at your church that day. = +10 points
22. If friends with kids eventually stop wanting to hang out with you because you’ve declined going with them to playdates a few too many times and you find out they would rather hang out with the new couple with young kids because they “understand what it’s like.” = +3 points
23. You can’t hold someone else’s baby at church without hearing “When are you going to get one of those?” or “That looks really good on you!” = +1 point
24. You’ve been told that you HAVE to watch the movie Facing the Giants. (Because, you know, it’s not just about facing “giants” in football…) = +2 points; +3 points if they tell you that the coach’s wife has a baby at the end
25. Someone has ever asked you about your fertility during Meet & Greet time at a Sunday morning service. = +1 point; +2 points if yelled across more than 2 rows of people
Your Score:
0-30 That’s okay, you’re still young. Just keep trying!
31-60 You’re not quite there yet. Have you considered other options?
61+ You’re an overachiever! The world would benefit greatly if you procreated!
How did you score? Did I miss anything you've ever heard as a MCWOK?
To read more about Hucklebuck and Stacey’s life as a MCWOK, visit Stacey’s blog.
We have 4 kids now so we may have lost all our points but we had about 100 points before.
ReplyDeleteMany here know our history of miscarriages and such so I'm not gonna repost that right now and I'm on my phone so finding the link ain't easy.
I will say this.
If anyone says "you lost the baby because God knew you weren't ready," and you didn't punch them in the face in Christian love +1000 points.
I lost all my points as well as we have four children as well.....but have been facing multiple early losses these past three years....(just conceived....again....last cycle only to have it "not stick") and have heard many of the lovely comments you have mentioned.
ReplyDeleteIt kinda rubs me wrong when people have the "deserving" stigma attached to when they are blessed with children. We all are deserving of blessings and it's not because one woman gets rewarded by the number of children she has. We are not equipped or created to comprehend/know what God's "reward system" is all about.
anyway....don't want to start rambling. I love this post! Gonna be sending a few people over right now.
There may be a theme here....we now have four children also, through adoption as well as biological. But I went through most of the situations you listed before that.
ReplyDeleteI think the point you need to reach is to extend grace to each "commentator". Most people do not make those comments out of malice, they simply don't know what to say.
I fall into a slightly different sub-set... I am part of a married couple with no kids by choice. When a lot of people in the church find out we decided by choice not to have children, they look at me like I must be possessed or on crack or from another planet or something.
ReplyDeleteSo I would add another one to the survey... If you ever had anyone tell you "That's silly, God would never let anything bad like that happen to you since you're a Christian" when you explain the good reasons why you don't have kids +10 points.
My husband and I have been married for 4 year and it seems that the longer we wait to have kids, the more people start to assume you can't have kids. Add in that we've started doing short-term foster care and the gossip about us in this small town is flying! Even our DOCTOR suggested that it was time for us to "settle down and pop some out." True story.
ReplyDeleteI'm in the same boat as Raw Faith Real World: my husband and I have been married for nearly 13 years, and we recently decided that we had waited too long to try to have kids. I love the way Raw Faith Real World put it. "They look at me like I must be possessed or on crack or from another planet or something." That EXACTLY explains the way I feel! All of the women I know who are in my age group are moms, and I feel like an alien.
ReplyDeleteI have heard almost all of the comments from this post at some point, but my favorite is when people tell me that we could still adopt. It's really hard to make that we aren't trying, we haven't tried, and we don't want to start a family with my husband already in his mid-40s. Thanks so much for running this post, Jon. It's given me a good laugh about what is often a frustrating situation.
I'm now a mum of 2 teenagers so, like some of the above commentors, I'm possibly disqualified from commenting. However, I do remember the pain of trying to conceive and it not happening for a long time. So, how about :
ReplyDeleteIf someone scrutinizes your stomach for signs of growth and then says "Congratulations - you're expecting!" when you're not....+3 points.
If you're trying to get over an eating disorder and are extremely self-conscious about your stomach and your slight weight gain - and then the above happens.......+30 points.
If the above happens more than once and you manage to smile and hide the tears......+300 points
There must be some points for sitting through a six-week sermon series on parenting as well.
ReplyDeleteStacy,
ReplyDeleteThis is a wonderful post.
It is amazing the assumptions people make into our private lives.
Sylvia, you have a point that many don't know what to say.
But there is definitely a percentage of people who are just plain ignorant.
That being said, in our church community, we have very understanding people who are praying for us privately, who love us without having to try to fix us, and some who sent us cards on the anniversary of our miscarriage.
Thank you, Stacy, for bringing some levity to a situation that often seems devoid of it.
When your sweet husband says from the bottom of his heart, after trying for years, "I love just you and me, the two of us are a perfect family", all points get washed away.
ReplyDeleteRIP Mr. Gee...you were one in a million.
Vicki in NC
I scored 56. Then again, I'm a children's pastor [yeah - a children's pastor with no kids yet - I think I should get an extra 10,000 points for that!], so I did score pretty high on the VBS question :o).
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I have been trying for a few months, and I seriously want to answer back when people start asking about kids, "And my sex life is your business because...?"
Because that's what it boils down to: they are asking me questions about my sex life and my medical history. It especially annoys me when "Quiverfull" people ask me about it - isn't the whole point of that movement to allow God to plan your family [not that I'm looking to be a Duggar clone, in any way, shape or form!]?
I didnt struggle with miscarriages but some of these same things on her list could be applied to my daughters chronic illness. Theres hardly a week goes by that someone does approach us with a "cure". I have stopped going to that church. I am also sad because I have said some of those very things she writes to other women struggling. I will try to keep my mouth shut in the future. Thanks for letting me know it hurts as much as others hurt me.
ReplyDeleteOh man, that is hysterical. I have said #6 to someone! I gave them 3 points. Wooo?
ReplyDeleteAnyhoo, some good points here. I have kids, but I inwardly cringe whenever I hear the pastor or talk about all the women in the church as "moms" or assume all families are mom+dad+kids. That's just not how it works out for everybody.
And good for you for hearing all these ridiculous comments and not treating the commenters like the printer in that one scene of Office Space.
Oh, my word, Nick the Greek...someone actually said that to you/your wife?! I say +5000 points. Not only is that an insult to you, but a bit of hubris there that they know what God is thinking? Unbelievable.
ReplyDeleteI have two kids now, took 5+ years of "trying" for each of them. Have had three miscarriages. These are right on, Stacey.
Re: #19, the "I'm blessed and you're not" folks. I always wanted to figure out some succinct way to tell the Rachel and/or Hannah stories...you know, Rachel couldn't have kids (for a long time, anyway), but her husband loved her best. Leah had plenty of kids...but she was ugly and unloved by hubby. Same with Hannah...Penninah had plenty of kids, but the husband loved Hannah more. And whose children are remembered? Joseph and Samuel, that's who. (That's probably too mean, though, isn't it?)
MCWOK sounds like something you would order at a McDonald's in China.
ReplyDeleteMcDonald's worker: Ni hao, may I take your order?
Me: Yes, I would like to order the McWok.
McDonald's worker: You want flies with that?
Still in the under 30 point range, but if you tossed in a couple comments about the fact that my wife works is somehow preventing her from having kids, we'd be much higher.
ReplyDelete#10 is my pet peeve - when asked, "When are you going to start a family?" I am always thinking, "We started our family the day we got married."
ReplyDelete#17 - I have been asked numerous times to babysit during weekdays when I am working. I guess people think I just hang out all day.
Honestly, I think people have the best of intentions but sometimes just are not thinking when they talk.
Wow, Nick, that's horrible. People told me that there was just something wrong with the baby, and God knew I couldn't handle a special needs child. It's amazing how cruel people can be without even realizing it. That being said, I have made some of the comments mentioned in the post. Would it be weird if I started hunting people down to apologize? Although most of the "get your baby fix" comments have been to my little sister trying to keep her motivated to wait a couple of years before she has her own...
ReplyDeleteGreat Post! I stopped counting points when I got to #14 that one just makes the math go too high. I'd say we got that one weekly for about 6 years. #21, wow that's rough, and about the only one we can't claim.
ReplyDeleteOur favorite was the "God eventually blessed every infertile woman in the bible with a child" with the implication clearly being that it is a lack of faith thing. This was from a person that was "infertile" for 6 months. My response was along the lines of "That's not infertile, that's impatience". Not my proudest moment, but you get tired of "well meaning" people making your wife cry.
We're making up for it now with comments about how good my wife looks, and people requesting tips on how to lose the baby weight. Answer: A good diet, exercise, and adoption. We usually omit the last part, it's our son's story afterall. We're proud of his story, but he doesn't need to learn it from the same "well meaning" people accompanied by their insightful commentary.
Oh my GOSH. This is SO true, and SO annoying!! My husband and I are coming up on 4 years married with no kids, and I get everything from the always inappropriate "so when are you going to have kids?!" comments, to looks of pity because we're still childless. Plus, it's kind of sad that since most of our friends have kids now, we barely hang out with them...doing stuff with them always becomes this event they have to "explain to us because we don't UNDERSTAND." Whatever. I'm so glad you posted this!
ReplyDeletePS I also skip the Mother's Day service. In addition to wanting to avoid the comments, I also avoid getting the "pity rose." You know, the ones you get after all the moms get one, and the leftovers are passed around the childless and single women.
Fantastic post, Stacey. I am very thankful to have met you right here on SCL. And now you are SCL famous! Woo! You and Huck are two the coolest people I know. :)
ReplyDeleteYou and a couple of my blogging friends have made me much more sensitive to those facing infertility and miscarriages. So I give myself one tiny point for giving the Glare of Death in Christian Love to those who don't think before they say something dumb that hurts one of my friends...
We scored in the mid-60s. However we're about to lose our points because we are now the MCWOKWANPAEITCFTPDISTFTIG : Married Couple Without Kids Who Are Now Pregnant And Everyone Is Taking Credit For Their Prayers Doing It, So Thanks I Guess.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously, we just found out we are going to have a baby after 5 years, 1 miscarriage, and two failed rounds of in-vitro, so I'm pretty pumped.
Stacey,
ReplyDeleteSometimes you have to laugh to keep from crying, huh? Laughing with you (and crying a bit, too if I'm being honest.)
Fantastic post. Love ya girl!
This post made me cry like a baby. When I think about my miscarriage, I think God allowed my miscarriage to teach me compassion for others loss. I believe he gave me a strong willed first born to teach me dependence on him and tolerance for others. I can see his design woven through my trials.
ReplyDeleteBut I cannot begin to fathom a true season on infertility and lost children. I pray for peace in this storm for you and a beautiful rainbow at the end.
Rachel
How about when they find out that you are a teacher for a living and say, "I'm sure not you don't want to have any of your own" +3 pts or when they say, "Well, I just can't wait to see _____________ (insert couple's name) as parents." + 2 pts
ReplyDeleteOr when they say on Mother's Day/Father's Day "Next year you'll be parents." (They've been saying this since we got married and still 3 1/2 years later and we're still childless.
Kudos, Stacey!
how about a post about all the womens groups, or church sponsored dance or exercise classes, that all assume that all women are either 1) stay at home mothers or 2) retired... No I CAN'T come to Bible Study at 10am - No I can't come to ballet at 12! I'm at work (and so are a lot of other women, married and single both!)
ReplyDeleteAnyway - there is a fine line between churches that but into your business too much and those where no one ever asks about you and they don't notice when you aren't there... Personally after a couple of different weeks of being bugged by a staff member about not being in sunday school (because thats where they count people - not worship service for somereason)- I'm about to go find an episcopal church or something where I can just get in and out the door...
I can't relate because I'm not even married yet. However, I watched my brother and sis-in-law go through this for about 6 years. It was painful watching them wait to see if the feritlity drugs worked and when they didn't be so disappointed. I didn't know what to say so I just told them I would pray for them. I know for them Mother's Day hurt bad and so did Father's Day. Now they are blessed with twin boys (who will be two this year) despite all the obstacles they faced. So I think they lost all their points times two :)
ReplyDeleteSorry for the typo. I meant "fertility". I can't spell today.
ReplyDeleteI prefer the acronym "DINK" -- Dual Income No Kids. It has a nice ring to it.
ReplyDelete"It will happen when you stop trying." Seriously? Maybe the church needs to stop fighting sex ed...
ReplyDeleteI'm formulating a hypothesis that we save our worst theology for when we want to demean each other.
My heart goes out to everyone touched by this. This behavior really makes me angry for you (moreso than the singleness stuff I get directed at me, to be honest), and, as big a deal as infertility issues have become in our world, I don't understand why people still don't get it.
To the childless-by-choice: the thought of having to defend THAT position in church-land makes my blood run cold - and I could very easily be you one day. Hang in there.
@katdish: I'm crying too.
ReplyDeleteWe have been off of birth control for well over a year and I dare not tell anyone. We haven't exactly been "trying" this whole time, but it seems like it might have happened already if there wasn't a problem. I think that's been my biggest fear since I was little, that I might not be able to have kids. And for someone to voice that would just devastate me.
I scored 23. I guess my church family is a little less vocal but I know they have to be thinking these things. I usually stay away from the old women. And there's only like one other couple in our church in our age group that is also currently childless and the wife is pretty vocal about not wanting them yet (she and I are both 30). It's hard to be friends with couples who have kids. That being said, my sister-in-law and brother-in-law don't really act any different than they did before they had their daughter who is now 2yo. So, that's cool.
Thanks, Stacey. I think most people don't realize how insensitive they are when they ask these questions.
@Jennifer - also, what about Abraham and Sarah? God was, um, kind of into them.
ReplyDeleteWow, two posts that hit me hard this week. You see, this was the issue I had in mind when thinking about the desert road and my life.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite has to be when people ask me if we are "trying." Last time I answered something along the lines of "Yeah, but obviously we are failing," or something along those lines just to see if I could make the questioner as uncomfortable as he (!) made me.
HAHAHAHAHA
ReplyDeleteAs the 1/2 of a MCWOK I can totally relate to this post.
Here's how our married life has gone:
Year 1: Right after the honeymoon until our first year anniversary everyone bugged us endlessly about kids.
Years 2&3: People figured out we were going to wait on kids for a while and basically left us alone about it.
Year 4: Other couples in our church who got married around the same time we did are staring to have kids so everyone assumes we're trying, too.
Let's just hope I never score those two extra points after being questioned about my fertility from two rows over.
WV: prizato (adjective): when your privacy is totally zapped due to being questioned about your fertility.
"Honey, why are you so flushed?"
"I got cornered by Mrs. Henderson during meet & greet. She gave me some tips so we can have kids quicker. It was so prizato."
One of the "Anonymous" comments mentioned Women's Groups assuming women are homemakers or stay-at-home moms. I completely agree! There could be a whole other post for working moms! My husband and I both work but he's a nurse so he gets to stay home with our son a lot. I get looks of pity all the time because I work full-time. It's crazy!
ReplyDeleteThis really was a great post. I cannot even begin to imagine what those women go through. There's a couple in my Sunday School class struggling with this... I need to pray for them more often.
Almost all of our church friends had kids before us. We liked to sit at church functions with another couple who also wanted to wait longer than 5 minutes to have kids so we could exchange funny things to say to people when they asked. It wasn't a sad time in our lives because neither of us were struggling to have kids yet, but the sarcastic comments did ward off further intrusion. One of my faves was, "We're still training to win the medal."
ReplyDeleteAwww....come on, guys. People ask because kids are one of the best things that have happened to them. People ask because God has told us to multiply. People ask because marriage usually (but not always) leads to children. People ask because they love you. Go to church? You're part of a community- which means opening your heart (and sometimes life) to others. One body, remember? Have some mercy on those of us who just want to share the incredible blessing that are kids!
ReplyDeleteTry being the pastor's wife in this situation - the expectation of details from people who ask questions gets amped up x100! The thing is, we're ok either way, if we have kids or not, but it's rather annoying to deal with the inquisition on a regular basis (like, every time we step on church property!).
ReplyDeleteI love the Hucklebucks!
ReplyDeleteGreat job, Stace!
Seems that church folks (many of whom agonize over God's will for their lives) have no trouble judging the choices that others make. During our struggles with infertility, I was shocked at how many casual acquaintances would ask which one of us had a problem!!
ReplyDeleteMy m-i-l even suggested we "just" adopt, because she was tired of waiting for a grandchild. "Just adopt" should just be stricken from the language.
It doesn't end with the children, either. Some "Christian" friends told me that I shouldn't adopt because God had closed my womb for a reason. Another told us that we shouldn't expect to conceive (since we were of different races, God would not bless our union).
During the adoption process, people asked why we were adopting internationally when so many American children needed homes.
Others said they had IVF because they wanted a child that was "really" their own.
My first venture to a Christian adoption agency I was told that none of their birth mothers would release a child to a mixed marriage like mine. Since I'm of Asian descent, my Caucasian husband and I sought out possibilities from Asia.
Why do you work outside the home? Why don't you work outside the home? Why do you send your kids to private school? Why do you homeschool? Why do you send your kids to public school?
I guess most people are just curious, or making conversation. My husband likes to say, "Never attribute malevolence to that which can be easily explained by ignorance." Malevolence, ignorance, or morbid curiosity, a lot of folks should just SHUT UP!!!
Myself included. Sorry for the rant. Love the post. Lots of points to be earned on this one!
My husband and I have been hurt recently by a comment made in our Life Group. All the members in our bible study have children and all the wives are currently pregnant.
ReplyDeleteHere was the comment about Unconditional Love:
"You will never understand unconditional love until you have children."
How many points is that one worth ?
Anonymous @ 8:03 AM
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry to hear of the terrible things people said because of you and your husbands race. They were so terribly out of line and don't know what they are talking about. Don't let them get you down.
Oh, I've been asked. Sometimes its part of meeting someone and fact finding: "Married?" Yes. "Kids?" No. And it's left at that...
ReplyDeleteBut sometimes if they feel they've gotten to know me a little better.... Sometimes I put on my most tortured face and say "I can't." (Which is true, I refused to do drugs or in vitro: I just didn't want to go down that path)
This leads them to their next question: "Why don't you learn how to drive?"
*headdesk*
I'd suggest doing a points game on that but from the way people look at me, I truly think I'm the only person in these United States who doesn't know and worse, doesn't care to know, how to drive.
I married into two kids and frequently hear the why didn't you want any more? Is it really necessary that I explain all about the vas reversal and all that? Is it really any of their business? Especially since the last two churches seem to have competitions re family size with small families running at about 6? sigh
ReplyDeleteI just have to say that I don't think you allowed enough points for some of these!
ReplyDeleteMy sister and I fall into the category of those who adopt and then get pregnant. I was the "surprise". Ironically enough, 30 years later, my (adopted) sister was blessed to adopt a beautiful boy after struggling to get pregnant, and now she's due in January. I don't think my dad and I have stopped laughing yet! God can be pretty hilarious.
For those of you still struggling to conceive, please know you will be in my prayers. I will thank God for your grace under "fire" from ignorant people, and examples of faith while you wait for Him to provide.
The Christian community never ceases to amaze me!!!!!
ReplyDeleteOh, my gosh - Leanne who posted at 8:25? Not only are our names spelled exactly the same, but:
ReplyDeletea. I don't have kids, either [although I think it's just a timing thing for me!]
b. I don't have my driver's license, either! I am planning on getting it, just because the area I moved to has next to no public transportation. But I really don't care one way or the other about it!
Let's be friends!!!
@"evenshine" - Wow! Have you ever held your sister's hand as she is losing that precious life? Have felt utterly and completely helpless as you watch her endure the pain and heartache time after time after time? It's insensitivity like yours that makes this all the more painful. God also calls us to have compassion.
ReplyDelete@Stacey - You are so inspiring. I love you so much!
This reminds me of the time that my wife stayed home from church because "she wasn't feeling well" (my words) and the next week I was pulled aside and asked if we were pregnant... by someone I hadn't even talked to the week before.
ReplyDelete@ savinggrc
ReplyDeleteYou should hear the comments we have gotten, *from Christians at church*....when we talk about our vas reversal story. Questioning why my husband would dare get one during our marriage only to "change his mind"....or how "I made him do it".
Grrrrrrr
Stacey - Thank you so much for this post. I stopped counting after a while because well, I'm worried I'd go to church this week and lose all sense of restraint when a certain well-meaning person told me they'd had a vision of our future kids.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think we should give some bonus points to the husbands that love kids and would actually like to hold your precious little angel, but get a dirty "you don't have any kids and I don't trust that you know how to hold one" looks.
Also, I think you should get points for creative ways you've come up with to avoid having to share every detail of your infertility with people that ask you when you're going to have kids about 4 minutes after you meet them.
Thanks again for making me laugh and cry.
I, too, was impacted by the desert road post, thinking of infertility.
ReplyDeleteLike Stephanie, I'm a pastor's wife who is infertile--married for twelve years, trying for eleven. While I scored fairly high, I'm grateful that it wasn't higher. My husband and I are intensely private about this area of our lives (so much else is on display and open for discussion), and so we don't field a lot of questions about it. I think people take their cues from us!
For the first time ever, I didn't go to church this year on Mother's Day. My husband suggested that I stay home, and for the first year I can remember, it was a tear-free Mother's Day. That was a gift.
People do mean well--they just don't think. As with so many things, infertility cannot be fully understood until it is experienced, and those with children clinging to their legs have not. I know their lives are stressful and taxing, and there are rich blessings in our couplehood that I wouldn't ever trade. I work to see the goodness of God in my hurt. It's here--it really is. It's a choice I have to make, or my life would be miserable--just marking time and ignoring His kindness and incredible gifts to me (chiefly, my precious husband).
If you're visiting a new small group for the first time, and the first couple to welcome you is friendly and excited to meet you UNTIL you answer their question with, "No, we don't have any children"; then they promptly pass you off to the token other "MCWOK" in the class - +3 points.
ReplyDeleteOr being asked when you will get in God's will and start having kids, with the (stated or implicit) implication that not having kids is sinning. (I'm single, but I have heard this said to my MCWOK friends. Though come to think of it, I've had very similar things said to me about my lack of husband and kids.)
ReplyDeleteAmen to all the women workers! I'm married, no kids, 31. Why is the women's Bible study at my church on a weekday morning? It's catering for at home women...ugh. And when I have kids, I will still work...again missing fellowship
ReplyDeleteWow, while I scored less than 30 points on the main test, I shot up when everyone else posted their additions.
ReplyDeleteRaw Faith Real world, I know what you mean. People are cruel to the childless-by-choice, even (or maybe especially) when the choice is for a difficult reason. Whether the reason is age, family history, health issues, or whatever, church folks just need to learn to accept the reasons as valid and not be so judgmental about it. Until they walk in our shoes, they have no clue what we face.
Connie, your response to Evenshine was much more graceful than mine would have been. To say what was said when there are people reading who have lost children or can't have them is just nasty. It's not edifying in any way to keep throwing a couple's personal pain back in their faces and pretend it's because of any alleged concern about them. It's just another weapon against those whose lives differ from the Americanized Christian ideal.
Right now, my husband and I are between churches. Reading this makes me wish I could give up the search. The stupid questions from single days were bad enough. The DINK questions are worse.
*Old DINK*
I'm single but I have a close friend who's a MCWOK. One of things I've noticed with her and her husband is that anytime they try to plan any sort of surprise party or something like that, or if they say they have good news they want to share with everyone, someone always has to shout out, "Oh my goodness!! You're pregnant!!!!" only to learn that they're not pregnant...they just wanted to share about a big job promotion or celebrate the fact that they closed on a house or something.
ReplyDeleteSo +2 posts if any sort of "surprise" or "good news" is assumed to mean you're pregnant.
They have actually named the couples' group at our church:
ReplyDelete"Couples with Young Children.... And JC and Laura" Group
HEAVENS. ABOVE. i always wanted to look back at that "sweet old lady" and ask her if she'd hit menopause yet or when she thought that might be coming along. What? We can't discuss your reproductive cycle too?
ReplyDeleteMegs - LOL. I try to think of snarky responses like that all the time. "So, when do you think you're going to have your next bowel movement? Oh, you're uncomfortable talking about your colon? Well, you were talking about my uterus, so I thought it suddenly became an acceptable topic of conversation. My bad."
ReplyDeleteSeriously. Come ON, people.
Leanne, I don't drive either and would be perfectly happy never learning.
ReplyDeleteWhen your church shows a video to highlight the need for childcare volunteers and opens the video with "Wanna get pregnant?" + 3
ReplyDeleteSince some have mentioned their favorite sarcastic remarks when asked "When are you going to have some kids?", I thought I'd share mine: "When we stop being so selfish"
ReplyDeleteI'm single but the assumptions about kids still bug me.
ReplyDelete+4 to any parent that makes reference to being more mature than you because they had kids. Um, I don't think they got pregant by showing God a maturity report card.
+2 if they married people assume you want a "kid fix". I love teenagers, but under 12 - no thank you. I've been told more than once that's not natural.
And my big gripe? You say you'd rather have a husband(To my knowledge having a husband and wife makes the process easier) to the people in Bible Study when asking about how you must have a burning desire to have kids, and they look at you like they expect to see your picture on the news the next time there's a bust on prostitutes.
Thanks Stacey, I read your blog too and about cried my eyes out right here at my desk at work.
ReplyDeleteanyhoo, my husband and I are approaching our 8th anniversary and I'm approaching 30 later this year. I didnt even add up a score cause it would be too large...
right now, we are childless by choice, and that gets us some very strange comments indeed. we did leave the young married's small group that we helped form, but we have been blessed to go into college ministry. so when i get the questions of "when are yall having kids?" i tell people i have about 20 kids...they just happen to be about 20 years old!
i do struggle with feeling inadequete or even sinful because I dont want kids right now, and may not ever. it's not something i talk about alot....and ironically, i work for an ob-gyn's office...
thanks for sharing your story Stacey.
Stace, I hope you know I love you!
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your thoughts on this very serious subject in a light and humorous manner. It's a good way to help ignorant people like me "get it."
If I helped raise anybody's score out there, I do apologize.
My personal rule is to never ask questions about someone's sex life. I am at a complete loss as to why someone's sex life has become an appropriate topic of conversation, especially in the church, over the past 30 years.
ReplyDeleteHow about all the inappropriate things people in church say to pregnant women? From commenting on the family size, to commenting about one's appearance, birth horror stories, health of baby horror stories, "God's will" comments when something tragic happens, etc.
JenR
THANKS, everybody for your responses to this post. I appreciate those who point out that most people are well-intentioned. I definitely believe that, but sometimes you've still gotta laugh!
ReplyDelete@Vicki in NC, your comment gave me chills. You're so right. Having a husband that special is priceless.
@Chris in Dallas, LOL! "When we stop being so selfish." I love it.
For all of you here who are struggling with infertility and/or loss, my prayers are with you as well. Thanks for sharing your stories here.
And for all of you who are caring friends and family members to an "infertile" - seriously, you have no idea how much we need and appreciate you!
Thanks Jon, for giving this issue a voice on your awesome blog.
42 points. It would've been MUCH higher if I'd been open about our infertility issues. I only told a couple of people who I trusted most about it, and they kept it to themselves, thankfully.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think there should be added points for every email forward you receive with a story about a woman who couldn't get pregnant, prayed once, and then couldn't stop having kids. Those forwards ticked me off but good!!
@evenshine
ReplyDeleteAs well intentioned as your comments here, as well as those that you may make in church to childless couples, are intended to be, they are hurtful. For someone who has tried repeatedly to get pregnant to have to explain why she has no children is nothing short of heartbreaking. It's better to not ask, because asking is often viewed as judging. And frankly, it's probably not your business.
So I have a question, as a MCWOK by choice. When you know someone is having infertility issues (ie mentioned as a "prayer concern" after a miscarriage etc) what do you say to offer support? Just offer prayer? Is there anything you would like to hear from those of us who do not understand your pain?
ReplyDeleteHow about just "I'm so sorry. I want you to know that I'm praying for you"? That's all that is necessary, really, and it could keep you out of hot water!
ReplyDeleteI was under the impression that Twitter solved all this.
ReplyDelete"I'm at the doctor's now, 'turn and cough Mr. MCWOK.'".
@JBrown,
ReplyDeleteExcellent question! Stacey has actually written a couple of blog posts on the topic.
First, What Not to Say (which also include what to say.)
And then these two posts that talk about being supportive to those going through infertility.
Getting it Right
More on Getting it Right
Just the fact that you ask shows that you care. Thanks!
Sorry...that should be "includes"
ReplyDeleteWell, as much as singles and us married-no-kids like to complain about people digging into our lives, I don't think just having kids makes it stop. A friend with kids assures me that if you have one the next question will be when you're having another (after all, only children are all spoiled brats, right), and you better hope that if you do have another that it's a different gender than the first, because otherwise you've got to keep trying. And even if you do keep going till you get 3 or more and have both genders covered, then you're still a bad parent because nobody has the time, money, and energy to properly raise that many children.
ReplyDeleteThere's no escaping it, you will be scrutinized.
I look at people like the infamous Jon and Kate. She was not able to have children but she did an end around with infertility treatment so she could. Just look at the mess of a relationship she brought those children into. It's sad. My own take is that she was shelfish. Like a kid who says, "I want! I want!"
ReplyDeleteI know some people who had their own healthy children but "wanted more" and they adopted. It's been nightmares for them. Literally marriages have fallen apart with the extra stress, unexpected job loss, etc. They didn't know what was down the road for them but God did.
My sister was at lunch with her friend who had wanted children so badly but had difficulty conceiving. They went thru years of expensive treatments and stress and finally had their two kids.
At lunch she was stressed and bedraggled. She said to my sister, "There's a reason your supposed to have kids in your 20s and not in your 40s."
Man is the only one who can go around the laws of nature that God put in place. It is the survial of the fittest in nature but man uses technology to create that which would not be created within the womb.
I know it's not easy and I don't mean to be hurtful but I am honestly asking don't you want GOD's WILL for your life? God knows what's best for us. If you're not able to have children, God has other plans for you.
Desire to be in HIS will, to live the life HE has for you. It will be SO MUCH BETTER than the one you can manipulate for yourself.
Being part of a MCWOK, I've been introduced to women at church functions before and been asked " Do you have any children?". Once when I replied "No, I don't", the woman looked at me like I was an alien, said "Oh", and then turned her back to me and began talking to another woman. I felt so loved by my sister in Christ!
ReplyDelete@ Lea - I think many of the people here in the SCL community desire God's Will, even though some of us may struggle with it at times. I think you may have missed the point, (both serious and lighthearted) of this post. I would encourage you to read the links Hucklebuck posted, as they will likely help stretch your perspective.
ReplyDeleteI can so relate!! Of course, we do have kids now, but went through years of all those well-meaning but inappropriate comments.
ReplyDeleteLOVED this post!
ReplyDeleteI scored really high on the list having struggled with infertility now for over 3 years with losses so I can identify with pretty much everything.
Hopefully readers will realize how hurtful some of their well meaning comments really are.
[As for Lea... I think Andi said it well.]
I went on birth control right before my wedding, gained 30 lbs in 10 months (I'm off of it now and loosing weight -- thank goodness!) and everyone just ASSUMED I was pregnant...because that's what good christians do when they get married, right?! Seriously, I had two people just congratulate me out of nowhere -- it seriously sucked!
ReplyDeleteI didn't get married until I was 36, so even if I hadn't gained weight I think people wouldn't assumed we were trying right from the get go. Christians are obsessed with marraige and babies!
@Lea,
ReplyDeleteIf you would check out my blog, you'd find that my husband and I have not yet used any fertility treatments to conceive. We are not against those who choose that path, and we may at some point do so ourselves after much thought and prayer. Even when medical intervention is involved, God is still the only author of life! My point is that God has given us six natural pregnancies that, for reasons we do not yet understand, were only for a short time on this earth.
We believe that God has placed the desire to be parents in our hearts. We know that we are meant to be parents, and we are willing to wait for the Lord's timing to make that happen whether through our own bodies or through adoption. Our hearts were designed to love and raise children. And we are pursuing God's will for our lives!
Stace - You are so kind and patient because what I would like to say to Lea right now is not kind and certainly does not show that I have patience with people who are totally ignorant! (Much less someone who would imply that you are not living in God's will.) Some people really should keep their two cents to themselves and quit trying to play "Holy Spirit" in other people's lives!
ReplyDeleteP.S. Sarah was in her 90's before she had a baby, that's a lot older than 40!
(oops, I accidentally posted this on the wrong post. here it is where it belongs.)
ReplyDeleteEvenshine: God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. Just as God telling Noah to build an ark doesn't mean everyone is supposed to be in the ship-building business, neither should you assume everyone is commanded to have kids. Adam and Even have done a pretty decent job of "filling the earth and subdo"ing it. Its overpopulated and beat down enough already! ;) Being married without kids for over a decade by choice, I was able to do so much more in ministry and impact so many more lives for eternity than had I been at home wiping noses (which I now am due to an oops, which everyone assumes was an answer to prayer - it probably was, just not my prayers! LOL)
Lea: adopted kids should not be blamed for their parents' failed marriages! Yes adoption tends to bring a harder parenting road due to attachment difficulties but stress doesn't cause divorce; only selfish parents cause divorce. Also who says God's will is found passively? God's will was for Canaan to fall to Israel but God still sent them to march. And to suggest God's will is to let parentless children suffer alone, often malnourished and neglected...wow. Not the God I serve!
(side note: I was on the path to adoption - licensed for 2 weeks - when we became pregnant with our oops. Yup we got a lot of those "it always happens when you stop trying" comments. Ha! It happened because we forgot the birth control on our vacation!)
WV: unfor. God is often unfor. None of us deserve the blessing of children or are good enough to raise them right. But sometimes we get what we don't deserve.
33 points. And an elderly male usher talked to my about my fertility. He also told me I was sinning because I hadn't had any children yet. Good times.
ReplyDelete@ Connie - I understand 'cause what I really wanted to say was: For Stacey, Hucklebuck, and all the other MCWOKs reading these comments: +10,000 points for Lea's comment!
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDeleteDoes Lea's comment count as a new low?
Andi: Only 10,000 points for that? ;)
*Old DINK*
If you've ever made any of these types of comments to a MCWOK and feel bad about it, don't beat yourself up over it. I made some of these same comments before we were ever "trying" to have children. I regret it, but I was young and naive and it just never occurred to me what I was saying.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, everybody's comments have been great! You guys are awesome!
Great post, Stacey. And thank you for your patient and graceful advice and blogging that has been helping to keep me from raising my IF friends and acquaintances' scores for a while now.
ReplyDeleteSome of these stories in the comments are just shocking, by the way. :o/
I love my church, but so loathe the lack of understanding regarding being married without children. The church structure is around where you are in your child-rearing, from everything from small groups to women's ministries.
ReplyDelete14 years of marriage, two ectopic pregnancies, in vitro and two failed adoption attempts and tens of thousands of dollars of debt, I have very little patience for anyone's "helpful" advice. Trying to have a baby nearly cost me my marriage, health and sanity. I've made peace with the plan God has for our lives--and it is good. So, when someone says something hurtful, stupid or "wha....??" I tell them, "that's not God's plan for us."
And I've never had anyone say anything beyond, "Oh, ah, that's good then."
Yes it is.
Wow. I am so overwhelmed after reading this post and the many comments. Stace, I am so blessed by having such a talented, caring, and often hilarious sister-in-law. I love you so much and am so proud of you. You are always in my prayers. -A
ReplyDeleteI'm a single 24-year-old woman and I found out last year that I can never have kids. My body just won't do it. And even though those comments aren't directed at me, they make my whole body hurt when I hear them directed at others. I feel the pain of those who are asked about children, would love to have children, but can't have children. And for those couples who struggle with infertility, hold each other tight. And be so, so thankful that when you got the awful news about the non-functioning ovaries (or whatever your situation is), you had each other to cling to and didn't have to face that news alone.
ReplyDeleteAnwyay, moving on... the fact is that people who don't have children living with them in their home do have a special space that's open for others that parents don't always have. Sometimes a troubled teen will trust a couple whose shelves aren't lined with VeggieTales videos over their parents (or other parents). Sometimes childless couples do have the time or resources to do amazing, exhausting mission work that they wouldn't be able to do if they had to tend to 2.5 kids and a dog. Sometimes the second bedroom that doesn't have a crib in it is the perfect safe place for a woman whose husband drinks too much and becomes violent. I think the church needs to have a great deal more respect for all individuals, because each person's particular set of circumstances allow them to serve God in a totally unique and wonderful (and NECESSARY) way. And this knowledge is what sees me through the tough times when I'm feeling sad about my own troubles and inabilities.
Thanks for telling me that the coach's wife has a baby at the end, I haven't seen the movie!
ReplyDeleteI have heard so many of those comments being said to others, and thankfully I can now be more aware to not say them!
@Anon at 6:56,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your very moving comment. I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. Your comment really reminds me that there are so many ways we can use our time and talents to serve the Lord and others, even when things don't turn out like we'd hoped or while we wait on His timing.
Praying for you.
@Carrie, sorry for the spoiler! :)
ReplyDeleteI completely "get" the point of the post - the humor as well as the serious aspect of it. I've gone to their blog. It's wonderful and I'm sure so helpful to many.
ReplyDeleteMy comments, while not politically correct, were honest yet I knew people would beat me up for them.
They were general and not directed at the person posting which I thought was evident by my use of the Jon and Kate illustration and situations in my own life.
I never blamed the adopted kids for divorce - they are the victims.
Sarah's womb in her old age was blessed by God, not technology. Just like Mary's cousin Elizabeth's. When people lived to be 200, 300 or 900 years old, of course children were conceived at older ages.
Regarding not finding God's will "passively" - I think most people who want to have children are "actively" engaging in sex to make it happen. Ain't nothing passive about that. God parted the Red Sea - he can open closed wombs and direct low count sperm.
PW's post, as so many on here, is wonderful and her choice as to how to "see" her infertility is beautiful. Our trials help us grow in Christ and help us comfort others, as this post and related blogs demonstrate.
The desire someone has in their heart to be a parent can be fulfilled in God's way. Dolly Parton is quoted as saying, "I never had children of my own. God has his purposes. God didn`t let me have children so everybody`s children could be mine. That`s kind of how I`m looking at it."
2 Corinthians 1:3-5
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.
*Recommends we revisit Wed.'s post on the desert road... as fellow travelers on this long hard road, my hubby and I find that often posts like these foster more bitter feelings than realization that most of these people are well intentioned- no, maybe they don't know what it is like to struggle each month, so the make insensitive comments. Perhaps they just don't know what to say. Perhaps the reality is that they struggled too, but didn't go to God with the pain and are now bitter themselves...
ReplyDeleteBe a duck... let the hurtful comments wash off your back and cling instead to the words of truth - I have several Scriptures that God has repeatedly brought to mind and encouraged me regarding his plan for me... if I have to take the desert road to get there, bring it on! :)
-A hopeful traveler
Thanks hopeful traveler. No worries. I've totally learned to be a duck in the last decade or so. :)
ReplyDelete@Lea - The fact of the matter is that you didn't comment on a post about Jon & Kate or about using technology to become pregnant, you commented on a post about what NOT TO SAY to people, specifically women who are hurting (in a way you obviously know nothing about) who do not have, but want kids.
ReplyDeleteAbout Sarah, yeah, I obviously know she didn't have access to technology, but she did pray to God to change her situation and she didn't know what His plan was. The Bible doesn't say she was "young", by the way, and she knew she was old and past child bearing age (even in that day and time Genesis 18:11)!
Frankly, here's the thing, Stacey put herself out there. She's got a tough skin. She's been through a lot. She's made the very best of an impossibly difficult situation and has used it to minister to others. Maybe your comment was honest. What if I thought those clothes you wore were REALLY REALLY unflattering? I'm being honest, but is it really necessary to say? Probably not!
Signed,
Stacey's protective Big Sister
God evidently changed the desire of Dolly Parton's heart, but I guess he hasn't changed or fulfilled Stacey's yet.
ReplyDeleteI love it when people presume to know God's will -- for other people. Let's leave that up to Him, shall we?
"There are three things that are never satisfied, four that never say, 'Enough!': the grave, the barren womb, land, which is never satisfied with water, and fire, which never says, 'Enough!'" Proverbs 30:15-16
ReplyDeleteThe Bible recognizes that the barren womb has the unquenchable desire to be filled.
Thoughts & prayers to those who are hurting.
Thank you for this post! My husband and I have been trying for 3 years, and have not been able to get pregnant. To avoid all of the hurtful comments, we've kept our struggle a secret from all but one friend.
ReplyDeleteThe hardest thing for me is when people say "you'll understand when you have kids". Not only can I not get pregnant, but I won't understand anything until I do... great. Not to mention, people constantly asking when we're going to have a baby. I wish I knew.
I needed this post today, as it's been emotionally hard in the last few months. I feel like such a failure, and like I'm "broken". I never thought it would be this hard, but the pressue, especially in the chuch has made it that much worse.
Anon@10:41,
ReplyDeletePeople like you are exactly the reason why I blog about such a painful struggle. You are NOT a failure, and you are certainly not alone, sister.
Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure it was hard.
We didn't have infertility problems but lots of friends that have shared those frustrations. Maybe it's just my profession (doc) that gives me access to this extra one for your list but I can't believe no one mentioned advise on sexual positions, timings, diets, and herbal remedies that are supposed to bring about fertility or the desired gender of your next child (I do have 3 daughters and everyone seems to assume I am dying to have a son. No thanks I am blessed with my girls and we are done- permanently).
ReplyDelete@Lea
ReplyDeleteSo the fact that I'm pregnant with a baby that was conceived using Clomid (the same drug Jon & Kate used) -- is that baby less of a blessing than if I'd been able to conceive without it? Are my husband and I less loved by God? Absolutely not. I believe 100% that God provided people with the ability to create such things so that miracles can happen. This baby is the biggest miracle I've ever experienced because doctors didn't think I'd EVER be able to get pregnant. God gets all of the glory here, all of it, because HE is the one knitting this baby together in my womb. HE is the one who determined that the use of Clomid would be successful for us. I could do nothing, HE has done everything. If this wasn't in His will, it wouldn't have happened. That's all there is to it. My baby is a blessing, and my husband and I receive that very, very thankfully.
you need to do an addendum to this: how to survive church if you're single.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 6:37...
ReplyDeleteYou said, "...all the womens groups, or church sponsored dance or exercise classes, that all assume that all women are either 1) stay at home mothers or 2) retired... No I CAN'T come to Bible Study at 10am - No I can't come to ballet at 12! I'm at work (and so are a lot of other women, married and single both!)"
Ummm...they offer these things at these times because there apparently ARE some women who are available then. I'm sure they realize that not EVERYONE can come during the day, but some can. It's not a personal attack on working women. Not everyone could come during evening or weekend hours, either, but hopefully your church offers something during those times as well. If not, maybe you should consider starting something for women whose schedules are more like yours. Most ministries and activities are scheduled according to when leaders are available.
"Anon@10:41,
ReplyDeletePeople like you are exactly the reason why I blog about such a painful struggle. You are NOT a failure, and you are certainly not alone, sister.
Thanks for sharing that. I'm sure it was hard."
Thank you Stacey. Sometimes I just need to know that I'm not the only one, especially when it seems like everyone around me either has a baby, or is pregnant.
I'd also like to mention that I think there is a misconception about infertility. Most of the time, it's caused by a medical condition. Which is why I don;t really understand why some people are so against fertility treatments. It's like saying that if we have cancer, not only was it God's will for us to get cancer, but if we treat it we're messing up God's plan for our death.
Endometriosis- Medical condition
Polycystic ovarian syndrome- Medical condition
Blocked tubes- Medical condition
annovulation- Medical condition
The list goes on and on. if someone was pooping out of their belly-button, they would have it treated, and wouldn't say a thing about it being "God's will". That's why we must be careful not to judge people. You have no idea how painful infertility is until you've been there.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHubby and I have chosen not to have kids but we don't tell everyone we know this. One lady told me that if I do aerobics ( it HAD to be aerobics!) I would definitely get pregnant because her daughter couldnt get pregnant and doing aerobics MADE her get pregnant. huh???
ReplyDeletecan u pls remove the comment before last pls for obvious reasons? =) thanks~
ReplyDeleteWell said, anon@7:07am...well said!!
ReplyDelete@Karen - Congratulations! What a blessing indeed!
Thanks for sharing this painful struggle. As someone who has seen both sides of this fence, I guess I can relate. We got pregnant easily the first time around, but have since experienced multiple pregnancy losses. The pain was unbearable, and not something that we will ever forget. Each time you get pregnant, you are on pins and needles wondering if this one "will make it." It is a painful place to be, especially when you know, or I know, that my faith should be stronger than that.
ReplyDeleteI know with our first pregnancy, we took for granted how easily it happened, and probably expected it to always work out that way. I'm sure I have said things out of just not understanding. Another of my friends is just starting down the road of seeking fertility help. As someone who has a child, I never mean to pry into her life, but I do desire so much for her desires to be fulfilled. And as someone who has lost babies, I desire that she should never have to experience that.
All that to say, I guess I didn't take offense to evenshine's remarks. When you love someone close to you who is desiring a child, you want to see that desire come true. I think a lot of people (most of the people) who commented on here have experienced difficulties in this area, or have had loved ones who have. We know it is painful. I think evenshine was just trying to say that people mean well....trust me, I've had some pretty dumb stuff said to me, but I do know they mean well.
I'm sorry for all of those reading this who have gone through this pain. I'm sorry my family has felt it, too. Frankly, it sucks. I just hate to see people get really angry at ones who are supposed to be church family. Because (possibly with few exceptions), I don't think any of these people say things to be mean-spirited or uncaring or flippant, but that they are just trying to grasp at some attempt of comforting words in a subject they haven't really experienced.
Thanks for sharing, Stacey. And Hucklebuck.
Number 3 will resonate with a wider audience, I think. 6 is funny for SCL regulars and kindred spirits, but 3 has general appeal.
ReplyDeleteLinked this post on my blog today because it's so good!! Many well-intentioned people need to use a little more discernment in what they say to or ask others in relation to pregnacy.
ReplyDeletethanks for making me aware of how insensitive i can be at times!
ReplyDeletemy sister and her husband tried to get pregnant for 5 years though they didn't share it with everyone. they got many of these comments. then when she had the flu someone asked if she could be pregnant. she replied-it's possible, we do have sex. silence.
in my case after 3 kids i get the don't you know what casues that? and are you trying for a baseball team? 3 apparantly crosses the line of wanted children.
we can all be idiots ...
After having some of these experiences myself (with miscarriage), I think I am more bothered by the people who make it seem that getting pregnant is a piece of cake. Honestly, I'm not bothered as much by the questions people ask (even though I've heard them!). I cringe, though, when people say things like, "My husband just winks at me and I'm pregnant!" As if it were that easy for anyone.
ReplyDeleteHey Stacey
ReplyDeleteI reckon I score damn near to 100%!! Well done for covering all the grond & hitting the nail on the head!
(((hugs))) to you my friend.
What about the people that ask your friends if you're pregnant every single Sunday, or if you wear a loose shirt, or if you're having a fat day? Or the whispers/looks that you get when people want to know but don't want to ask because it might be uncomfortable....
ReplyDeleteStacey, I don't know you, but I think I love you. I was nodding my head so hard while reading your post that I think my husband thought I was having a seizure. SO TRUE! And I think I got a perfect score. Is there a prize for that? :)
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you are struggling with this stuff. I've had five miscarriages and also unexplained infertility. It is no fun at all.
We have three now, and now I get to shield the ridiculous "see, you just had to adopt before you could get pregnant" comments. As if adopting is some means to an end. Ugh.
Good words, and thanks for bringing some lightness to what is truly a difficult situation.
Excellent post!
ReplyDeleteWe have 3 kids now, but before we had our first, we rode the roller coaster that is infertility. Though it was heart wrenching and downright painful at times, I learned so many valuable lessons about what NOT to say...or what to say, or better yet, when to just shut up and sit with someone who is hurting.
May God fill the hearts of those who's arms are empty with an overflowing, unmeasurable amount of His grace and peace.
I have tracked this post and its comments with great interest: I have identified with the arguments (even from the more controversial posters), laughed at the comments that are funny in retrospect but definitely unwelcome... I am engaged and haven't been in a position to go through the sorrow of miscarriage, the utter frustration of trying to get pregnant with no success, or the infuriating comments that people feel obliged to make. But it's not that I don't care... I want to, but being able to relate to someone whose situation I *don't* understand is the challenging thing!
ReplyDeleteThe comments on this post come from such a spectrum of experience that no one person is able to experience it all. That being the case, we'll never be able to identify with everyone's story. As much as the post (with ensuing comments) has engaged and entertained me, both the 'what not to say' and the 'what to say that does actually help' has given me, someone without a clue really, a way to show that I care about what you're going through.
Thought of the minute: how can I make sure that my words and responses are driven first and foremost by how I care for the person, rather than by my opinion/analysis of their situation, opinion, circumstance or choice?
Challenge to everyone (it's be suggested numerous times but not articulated): be the one person in your church who doesn't feel the need to offer these comments that can cause people hurt and/or annoyance/frustration. I suspect that we represent a fair few number of churches across the world, so we actually have the ability to affect church culture. (Maybe that's a little idealistic of me, but seriously - be the change!)
Stacey: I admire the grace with which you responded to some people on this post. Thanks for the example to follow!
Thank you Stacey. This blog was just what I needed. Years ago I received a word about giving birth (I thought) to a child. Many confirmations followed. One pastor told me "hang on to this...I've never been more sure of anything". Eight years now, still none. I hung on to the promise. After finally getting a diagnosis, of which the disease treatment was a hysterectomy...the pastor said "I could have just been picking up what you wanted". Several other people said "What a praise report you will give when you give birth without a uterus!" (that must be 1000 pts!)
ReplyDeleteAnd of course, many others said not to worry, adoption is a wonderful avenue and you'll make such a great mom. Yep, kick me when I'm down.
I know they meant well, but a hug would have been a much better form of encouragement.
1st, a confession and apology. When we were much younger and dumber my wife and I used to send cards to people on the birth of their first child that said "congratulations on becoming a family." Years later I recognised the implication and felt like a real jerk, so my apologies to all the families out there without kids.
ReplyDelete2nd, this probably doesn't belong on this post, because it's about the other end of the spectrum, but the 'dumb things people say' stuff goes on there too & some of the comments here reminded me of it. We're one of those couples who never had to try hard - in fact I would have liked our kids to have been the product of a little more work ;)
My wife recently gave birth to #5, who is proof that the disclaimer on the side of condom boxes is both true and necessary, and it seems that in Christendom, not only are there people who believe you can't be a proper Christian without children, but also people who believe there's such a thing as too many children (actually, I think there's just lots of people who think everyone else should be just like them). We actually dreaded it when it got past the 'just a big shirt' stage and we had to say something because we knew the looks and comments we'd get, and we'd made a decision (apart from a few close friends) not to broadcast the fact that this was unplanned (I actually know someone who not only told their final child that they were unplanned but listed all the things it prevented them from doing - then wondered why the kid went off the rails!)
When I (the pastor, so did it up the front - like a bandaid - one motion; right off! Just get it done) made our news known my wife actually overheard someone a few seats away say to a friend "why would you do that?" Nice.
It was also inevitable that we would hear again several versions of 'haven't you worked out what causes it yet?"
I've found that; "Yes we do know, we just happen to enjoy/be rather good at it." Usually shuts them up.
@James - when you hear someone's bad news (of ANY flavor), there are a few phrases that are *always* good:
ReplyDelete-I'm so sorry. You will be in my prayers.
-If you want someone to talk to, I'm here for you. And if you want to *not* talk about it, I'm here for that too.
-I promise to keep you in my prayers.
-Would you like me to keep this in confidence, or should I ask trusted friends to pray for you? (When my mom miscarried, a wonderful friend offered to quietly inform mutual, trusted friends of the news so my mom didn't have to repeat it over and over. That friend was such a blessing. But the key is, she *asked* my mom first, and my mom told her who to tell. Not everyone will want this, but in some situations, it can really help. And again, only if and who the person wants you to tell.)
-Is there anything I can do to help? Would it be helpful for me to bring you a meal/take your laundry to the dry cleaners/watch the kids for an evening?
-I wish I knew something to say, but I'm afraid anything I said would sound trite. I hope God surrounds you with comfort and peace. I will pray for you.
My heart aches for all of you who have also walked or are currently walking this road. I'm grateful that so many have shared portions of their stories here.
ReplyDelete@James, thanks for your interest in the post and all the comments. It is obvious that you are concerned with building others up with your words and actions. I'm taking your challenge to heart as well. My own struggle has made me far more sensitive to other people who are dealing with all kinds of hurts. But of course there are times when I don't get involved because I feel afraid or inadequate. Anyway, thanks.
@Anon on July 12 @ 6:47, I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for explaining that so clearly.
@Angela, saying prayers for you tonight. I'm so sorry & wish I could give you that hug now.
I'll score big with "the facing the giants" and every movie that talks about having kids..
ReplyDeleteAnd also with the dreams and visions of us having kids. Sometimes I wonder "will all of my church mate dream of us?"
and this is what I am becoming now..I am sometimes afraid to hold someone's baby even though I would love to cuddle and carry them because I know I will be asked that question of when will I have my own...
and we've only been married three years..
Thanks for this great post!
Stacey- You're amazing. The grace with which you answered Leah's posts was truly from God. Keep believing. And when God does answer your prayers, just think how all the people who love you will rejoice and praise God for what He has done.
ReplyDeleteWhen I married my husband, he already had 2 awesome boys. I love them like my own so neither of us feel the need to have any more together. Like you, I have had many inappropriate converstaions involving our reproductive organs, which inspired me to write a blog post entitled: "Congratulations, Now What Are You Doing With Your Uterus?" Funnily enough, since then I have not heard one comment! :-)
ReplyDeleteI loved your post and your take on it!
If you did one on
ReplyDelete"surviving church as a single woman in mid 30's who desperately wants kids and is not single by choice and doesn't have a major personality disorder" I'd score about a million points
Wow, we've been married for three years with no kids, and I can honestly say that I've never heard any of these before. This is probably a sign that we need to talk to more people at church...
ReplyDeleteGreat post!
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I have a 5 year old now, so we no longer get the "When are you going to start a family?" question... no it has now become the "When are you going to have another?"
A technique which we used to reduce the frequency of awkward questions was to put that intrusively inquisitive on the defense by answering "Well... we've been looking for a surrogate mother, what are you doing the next 9 months?" Worked every time ;-)
I was told "at least you have your dog." (because having a dog is the same as having a baby)
ReplyDeleteWe struggled for a looooong time, and then we had our first daughter. God surprised us with a second child right away, so now we get the other side of it too.
I have heard the following more times than I care to count:
"well now that you guys figured out how it works..."
I was pregnant with my second at a ladie's tea, and in front of about 10 others, someone asked me "so once you pop that kid out, are you guys gonna use a little birth control?"
When you're a female pastor, married for a number of years, struggling to conceive and you're asked to preach on Mother's Day, that's got to be at least +1000 points
ReplyDeleteWhen you're a female pastor and someone in the congregation tells you couldn't possible oversee the women's ministry because you 'haven't even been through childbirth', +2000 points
Yep, both of these really happened!
Love the suggestion about asking whether it would be helpful to spread the bad news. I've never struggled with infertility, but years ago when I called off my wedding, I got thoroughly sick and tired of telling every single person I knew. Those few friends who thought to mention it to another friend spared me a lot of pain.
ReplyDeleteFor a few years, I was the only woman in my church who wasn't a mom. No singles. No newlyweds. Just me and the moms. While the men in the church didn't have trouble treating my husband like one of the guys, the women never quite managed to include me. And it got worse as time went on. I got so tired of being treated as if I was somehow inferior to them. When we'd joined the newly-planted church, I figured other childless couples would eventually arrive, or we'd have kids. But I finally decided that if I ever qualified for membership in the moms club, I wouldn't want my kid around those people anyway.
As a side note, I always thought it was comical when people tried to comfort me for being childless, saying "Don't worry, it will happen for you someday." Maybe because I wasn't the slightest bit worried about it. I much preferred them to the people who told me I'd better hurry up and have kids. (Because the facts that I was recovering from a serious illness and my husband was on a military assignment on another continent didn't excuse me from my churchly duty to be a baby factory./rant)
My favourite comments always include people telling you they have the gift of praying for healing for infertile couples... the amount of people who have that gift is AMAZING!!! I can't believe that I still know any infertile couples, with that gift so freely available to so many in Christian circles. Close down fertility clinics, every second Christian actually has the ability to heal you!
ReplyDeleteI've also found bizarre the number of "prohetic pictures" people have of you holding a baby, or having your baby dedicated etc - I've been married 12 years with no kids. (Don't people know what happened to false prophets back in the day!!!!)
My worst, however, is people's eyes starting to tear up when you tell them you can't have kids, followed quickly by them grasping your forearm and telling you how sorry they truly are - this is almost always from people who hardly know you. "Sympathy" from a stranger makes me squirm!
I worked as children's pastor in my church for 6 years, when I finished people told me how great it was because I could finally have my own kids... actually it was because I decided to do a PhD!
This wasn't at church, but recently a relative of my husband's grabbed me in a restaurant, put his hand on my belly, and told my husband to "get to work." I wanted to scream.
ReplyDelete@ Anon on July 10, 6:56 PM - Thank you! This is exactly what I was working to try to articulate in my mind. "All things work together for good for those who love the Lord." Love Him, and He will direct your steps.
ReplyDeleteTo me it boils down to the self-centeredness of people. Not to sound harsh, but if folks would stop for two seconds to step out of their tiny world view and listen to themselves, they might think twice about the way they approach sensitive and private issues like childbearing.
We are called to pray and to show compassion, not to stick our noses where they don't belong.
Oh thank you, thank you for posting this! Every single comment has been made to me as we have been trying over 3 years now. We were tested as ok and have not taken drugs yet. We have small group get-to-gethers and everyone has kids but us! I like the church, I was we just had more couple things going on. I feel like such an outcast b/c I can't chime in on their children convos. So with all the other things spectulated as to how to have children... we are getting a new puppy this weekend. Ha, I'll start there. I wish everyone with kids could see this posting, as well as pastors.
ReplyDelete27. I think there should be extra points if you are single and get all these.
ReplyDelete