There are some topics that I think will start conversations on this site. Christians drinking beer and the book, “The Shack” are two that I thought might create some healthy dialog. But to tell you the truth, I never saw yesterday’s post coming.
The weekends are usually pretty quiet at the SCL, but for some reason, when I posted the PAMIC Manifesto (People Against Massages In Church) yesterday there was a groundswell of interaction. I was not expecting to have people rise up in favor of massaging each other during service. And even though I am one of the founding fathers of PAMIC, I thought the members of CIMAP (Church Is Massage Appropriate Place), which is PAMIC backwards, deserved to share their side of things.
So I went through the comments on yesterday’s post and some other ideas from pro massage folks and created what I imagine the CIMAP manifesto would say. But because I am such a fierce supporter of PAMIC, I had to provide a brief response to each point in the manifesto.
The CIMAP Manifesto
1. Hard working loved ones deserve massages during church.
My loved one or spouse has worked hard all week. I choose to rub their neck, back, shoulders or head during service as a way to show that I appreciate how hard they worked and I am invested in helping their sore back. My significant other appreciates this and it’s a part of our Sunday morning routine.
PAMIC Response
Fair enough. I have a wuss cubicle job and rarely get a bad case of “writer’s shoulder.” I admit I did not anticipate this reason. We will acknowledge this as a valid reason to give someone a neck massage in church if you can prove that your significant other is a lumberjack, a forest firefighter that jumps out of planes or an Alaskan crab guy from the television program, “The Deadliest Catch.”
2. Physical touch is one of our love languages.
We rub backs and shoulders because physical touch is one of our love languages. It is how we express, to the person sitting next to us, that we love them and fell connected to them. To not massage would be denying my love language.
PAMIC Response
Good point. Physical touch is not one of my love languages and I can appreciate that. I will say however that “words of affirmation” is one of my love languages and during church I temporarily pause that love language. I just think that it would be distracting to the people around me if I spent the entire sermon leaning over to my wife saying, “You are awesome! I know I initially balked at that Scotch Romanian chicken salad you made last night for dinner but I was wrong. You have nice shoes and if you didn’t know how to do the taxes, I would be a hobo!”
3. Get over it! If it distracts you, sit somewhere else.
Unless we belong to a four-person church, chances are you can find another seat. I mean come on, did you come to listen to the sermon or analyze everyone that sits near you. The “circle of distraction” I am creating on my husbands back with my hand is not an impossible problem to fix. Move.
PAMIC Response
Again, the CIMAP folks make some good points. It is very easy for me to switch seats and I respect that suggestion. I will say that “If it distracts you, sit somewhere else” is probably not the nicest thing to say to say to a visitor. I mean, I do an admittedly bad job at loving my neighbor but I’m not sure saying “Get over it!” lets your church neighbor know you love them.
CIMAP Response to the PAMIC Response
Fair enough, but what if the lady in front of you that is giving her husband a back rub is a first time visitor? Are you going to launch what you called a “PAMIC Attack” and squirt her with a squirt gun full of vinegar? Is that loving your neighbor? That is a horrible thing to do.
Whoa, this is getting heated. I even got a comment about a husband that was in PAMIC and a wife that was in CIMAP. He was against massages and she was for massages. This issue is that big right now. But maybe I shouldn’t be surprised since it’s an election year here in America. We keep hearing about red states and blue states from the media. In the church massage battle, I think that red, the color of love has to be associated with those that massage. Which means PAMIC is blue, a color often associated with being cold. But what does it all mean?
Pro Massage vs. Anti Massage
For vs. Against
Husband vs. Wife
Reds vs. Blues
I guess I wish we, as blues and reds, and husbands and wives, could come together and put aside our differences and simply make purple.
Hysterical! Even better than the Part 1! Personally, I'm PAMIC. Go blue!
ReplyDeleteLMBO!!!
ReplyDeleteYou just brought tears of pure joy to my eyes! That was hilarious! I needed that...
And I did keep an eye as watchful as a hawk on everyone sitting in front of me in church this morning... I didn't see any church PDA offenders. Darn. All that vinegar gone to waste =P
Looks like we've got a full on war on our hands... this could get interesting :)
Side hugs and leg drops,
A faithful member of PAMIC
Ok. I can't take sides here because I don't mind massages, but my husband is never in the service since he is always serving in the Welcome Ministry and checking kids into the Children's Ministry. But I am TOTALLY into making purple with him. Yeah!!!
ReplyDeleteHeidi Reed
Making Purple? Hahahaha! I vote that all of us PAMICs sit in the front of the worship space. It makes the worship leaders happy and we would have to turn around to see the CIMAPs. Right?
ReplyDeleteOk, you're right. I'll just shut up and put my head down.
It is your fault I couldn't concentrate in church this morning. Kept looking around for offenders.
ReplyDeleteMy husband is never in church with me because he works in the Children's ministry, but if he was, I sure wouldn't mind a little neck rub. I often have a stiff neck. I've always considered PDA being something like making out in public not a little one handed neck rub by your spouse. I don't see the harm. I've never been distracted or offended by this. But I have occassionally enjoyed seeing evidence of a couple who love each other. So, I guess I'll register as a card carrying CIMAP! GO RED! Show the love!
ReplyDeleteJon, you are so awesome. I don't even have any other words to say about it. Except to say that I didn't see this post coming but it is brilliant. Perfect. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteToday in church, this couple 2 rows in front of me kept rubbing each others backs. First it was the wife scratching her husbands back... which I think is perfectly fine if his back really did itch that bad. BUT then they kept going back and forth... it was so distracting... and then I was trying really hard not to laugh because I kept thinking about the original post about this topic from yesterday.
ReplyDeleteDEFINITELY laughed really hard while reading part 2
What a riot! As a Presbyterian (the denom affectionately known as "the frozen chosen") I don't see too much massage going on at my church--and I go to a mega church. However, I have been a member of churches where "the laying on of hands" has taken a whole new meaning, so I can appreciate your "PAMIC" stance. Watching other folks' display of love in a place where our ultimate focus is our love of God makes me uncomfy, but hey--at least they're loving each other!
ReplyDeleteI did not post on #368 part one because my feelings got a little hurt with so many people saying our PDAs made them want to vomit.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the part 2. I still do not really want to talk about it but me and my husband are very red and already leary of 'church people' so if we make you want to vomit, or move or need to step outside for air I really hope you do not get up the nerve to tell us so. Grace & Peace, daphne
One point I didn't see here is that it helps many people sit still. I use "massage" with my 7th grader for this reason. Trust me, it would be far more distracting for you to sit behind us with her wiggling if I didn't. She sensory challenges that make it very hard to sit still.
ReplyDeleteHaha I just spit my St. Arbucks all over the place and have tears in my eyes!
ReplyDeleteLOL --- this is all truly entertaining. I for one - will not touch my husband in church --- there is no a/c and it is always one billion degrees --- hands off policy in effect.
ReplyDeletetara
This is absolutely hilarious!!! I think I've scratched my hubby's back in church, but I'm sure I didn't linger...I will so be on the lookout now! I'm choosing PAMIC all the way!!!
ReplyDeleteI like how when someone challenges your post idea or view on a subject, you decide to write another post to rub your bias viewpoint in their face.
ReplyDeleteLOL
Just kidding man, but I will say I'm 100% PAMIC
I have massaged my husband's neck in Church when he has had a headache, and he has done the same for me. I will not apologize. Go CIMAP!
ReplyDeleteit makes me uncomfortable when people do that. if people want a massage because they work hard, or want to give them because they love their spouse (or whoever)...that's fine...why is a church sermon the best time for that? i don't understand that. i think we'd all agree that making out in church is weird. for the exact same reasons that giving a back rub is. it's just a really weird time to be doing that. kissing is another way to show someone you love them and appreciate them...but you don't do that in church...
ReplyDeleteactually i did see someone do that once, and that also made me uncomfortable.
Huh, I guess I am on Team CIMAP. I occasionally give my husband a little love during service, but I don't linger, it's like a 10 second thing. I do sit either holding his hand or with my hand resting on his thigh. I didn't realize it was so scandalous. So I am CIMAP and Proud!
ReplyDeleteWhat about when your patting your husband during part of the sermon that you REALLY think he needs to hear? I think I read a blog on that recently:)
ReplyDelete...other ways to let him know that the sermon was 'talking' to him: hand squeeze, knee squeeze, elbow to side, whispering "did you hear that?"
I'm on Cimap simply because my wife freezes to death in our church and she needs my body heat.
ReplyDeleteoh dear this was just too awesome for words. i think i will always be firmly of the PAMIC camp. but i wouldn't mind having a husband to make purple with, even if he's of CIMAP. i'm sure we can set our differences aside.
ReplyDeletethis morning I went to someone else's church and as we stood to sing my friend who was next to me gave me something in between a side hug and a real hug and then fleetingly scratched my back for just a second. I took this as an invitation and starting scratching her back as she picked back up scratching mine. we continued this for the first round of songs we sang and I must say that for the next round I kinda felt like I was left hanging, wondering whether or not to pick up the back scratching again....
ReplyDeleteI am a die hard PAMIC. Never shall I be pulled to the other side. For you CIMAPers what about this as an alternative:
ReplyDelete1. Holding hands during worship or throughout the service.
2. Arm around the spouse is just fine (esp. if the spouse, like Dan commented is cold), just keep it still, or the occasional "assurance squeeze" on the shoulder
3. Maybe stay home that morning if you feel that spouse needs extra love and attention from a hard week..do all that squeezing and massaging at home, for longer, with no one watching...if you catch my drift. THEN go to the evening service somewhere.
4. If the urge remains at the evening service, see tips #1 and 2.
There's a time and place, people, a time and place....
I'm with Helen. For whatever reason my husband always seems to have headaches in church (probably due to the insansity of trying to get 5 boys dressed and out of the door on time). Plus my love language is physical touch so it would be downright mean to not help him in a great time of need. ;O)
ReplyDeleteThis stuff is just way too funny! My husband and I seriously wet our pants laughing at this! When we were in college, there was a "pleasingly plump" couple who ALWAYS planted themselves RIGHT IN FRONT of us and then proceed to massage the tar out of each other...our dry heaving would start when he would literally roll his fingers through her rib fat...augh...yak...GO PAMIC! We're in 100%!
ReplyDeleteDoesn't it say somewhere in the Scriptures that if your action offends someone, you should stop doing it?
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm certain I read that somewhere.
Thanks to your posts today, I was distracted from a really good sermon by the youth pastor's "back-forth-up-down" scratching of his wife's back.
ReplyDeleteI really had to concentrate to recover my church face.
Dear CIMAP peoples:
ReplyDeletedo you massage each other at the movies the same way you do at church?
Touch is a wonderful expression of love. and the following do not distract me in a service: arm around loved one. holding hands. hand on leg, just leave it there, don't wander! ...(peripheral vision of those in the same row.)
I think it's just being considerate of those around you. the massaging, the scratching, the rubbing... that's the distracting stuff.
Well I'm not married so maybe it is unfair for me to be a part of the PAMIC GROUP; but I mean come on - the excessive rubbing is distracting.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I feel like one of the persons is actually trying to send us a message by 'writing out' messages on the spouses back or head. And I as I watch and try to decipher the different letters and numbers I usually end up looking at them with my head sideways. I submit that this should not be in church...though it is hilarious. :)
My love language is "Acts of Service", so I like to buff and shine my husband's shoes during service. Or during sandal season, I like to scrape the dead skin off his hard working feet with a ped-egg.
ReplyDeleteWe should all feel welcome to express our love languages wherever we feel compelled to do so.
LOL. Great last sentence. We need to get McCain's and Obama's stance on this. I mean, who cares about energy, taxes, the economy, the war, education, healthcare and everything else.
ReplyDeletePAMIC! PAMIC! PAMIC!
ReplyDeleteObama's stance is against whatever McCain's stance has. Also, given that he went to church for 20 years, he never saw it because he wasn't there that Sunday or sitting far away from the massagers.
ReplyDeleteThis is one area where the scriptures just aren't clear on the subject.
ReplyDeleteThis might be a case for: Exodus 32:9
This might be a case to wait till after church: 1 Samuel 1:19
Tom
I find it fascinating that when it comes to massages in church being distracting, the answer is, "Just move" but when it comes to kids in church being distracting we say, "Get the kid out of here. I'm distracted." Just a thought. Seems like sometimes, our answers to things are a response to our own selfishness.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of which, I learned in church yesterday that in Jesus' time, kids were seen as second class citizens. I wonder if some of that is still residual today... it'd be an interesting point to discuss.
You are too much, Jon! Just when I think you have had to run out of funny - you run smack into a bowl of some more. How DO you come up with this stuff? As far as the PAMIC/CIMAP debate, I don't feel that I fit into either, so what does that make me? Don't answer that! HA!
ReplyDeleteTo the CIMAPS: if you're doing something that is distracting your brothers and sisters during the service where you are worshiping God, you should stop doing it. "Get up and move?" Seriously? How is that loving your neighbor? It's not too much to ask that you refrain from PDA for an hour.
ReplyDeleteShow everybody how loving and healthy your relationship is by neck massaging during fellowship hour. Heck, give a full body massage during fellowship hour. We're focusing on the bad coffee, not trying to worship the God of the universe.
Time and place, CIMAPS. Please stop thinking only of yourselves.
I am pregnant with our seventh baby, and if my husband couldn't rub my lower back from time to time (and I mean my actual lower back, not my "lower back") I'd never make it through church. The chairs are insanely uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI guess I am so PAMIC that I just have a hard time understanding how the CIMAP's thought process goes and how one could not distinguish between:
ReplyDeleteacts that are non-distracting public displays of togetherness and affection (hand holding, arm around shoulder, etc.)
vs.
acts that are distracting because (a) they involve constant motion, to which the human eye is drawn, and (b) look like the beginnings of foreplay - regardless of whether they are intended as such or not.
Example: A woman sitting in front of us in church with her head resting on her husband's shoulder (completely appropriate) after a while first began to rub his back in a circular caressing motion, then to kiss his earlobe (distracting).
Definitely PAMIC. I have a very wide "no fly zone" and don't want anyone, spouse or otherwise, invading it. I spend half the meet-and-greet session avoiding the known side and full-frontal huggers; including the pastor. I'm more of a hand shake kind of guy. I can hardly wait to meet the guy that invented the handshake so I can shake his hand.
ReplyDeleteIf I have a headache, I typically try an idea that's a bit over the top; I take a couple of aspirin.
My wife took a sweater to church yesterday because sometimes our sanctuary is a little cool. And it's not like we live in a cool climate, it topped out at 106 here yesterday. All it takes is a little planning.
Our church's most notorious CIMAP couple are, well, uh, let's just say they're not getting the full benefit of their health club membership. And I certainly don't need the image of them making purple.
So, I don't care if you're married or not, you should heed the words of those famous musical philosophers The Georgia Satellites; "Keep Your Hands to Yourself!"
We voted that anything beyond 4 seconds or that shapes into a geometric pattern is worthy of PAMIC. Our solution PAMICS upfront - we have ADHD and are distracted by CAMIP. CAMIPS in back. We'll run down the aisle , side hug , do a 5.5 sec hand-shake and tell you "I'm a fool and hate touching and God loves us all" and run back to our seats so we don't miss the magical prayer session........Our we catching on to you now?
ReplyDeleteSo if you do use the health club membership, anon @ 7:58, what then? Do you want that image?
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, we're all people, we're going to distract one another. Whiney, chair kicking kids drive me nuts, but I don't give people the stink eye over it, or put bad parent stamps on their foreheads.
If we banned neck rubbers and noisy kids, there would still be the pin clicker, the snot sniffer, the knuckle cracker, and the foot tapper ... ban the annoyers and eventually no one will be left?
Jon, I don't know who to thank more -- you, or the commenters on your blog. These two posts need to go into the SCL hall of fame.
ReplyDeletemistymorningmountain and anon at 7:58, your posts brought me to tears. Well done, indeed.
I'm all for married coupled holding hands and putting their arms around each other. That is very sweet. But when it leads to massaging and snuggling it does get distracting. So I probably lean more towards PAMIC although I think I might be somewhere in between. On a side note, my experience has not been with married people very often but with dating couples. Me and my friends will be sitting in church and the girl gives us a look like "he's mine" and then proceeds to snuggle with her boyfriend or sometimes it's the guy that does that. I've seen this more than once and these people are grown adults! It makes me laugh!
ReplyDeleteI had a lady clip her fingernails next to me in church a while back. Surely that is worse than PDA?
ReplyDeleteI am of the PAMIC camp. I find the movement and rubbing noise distracting. So I sit in the front row. Now, only my husband's fidgeting annoys me.
Though our individual relationships with God are personal, we gather as a community. Knowingly doing anything that is distracting to multiple members of the community and then arguing it's a personal right/not a big deal/etc. shows disrespect. In our conduct, our priority should be whatever benefits the spiritual body of Christ, of which we are all a part, rather than our individual physical bodies. It seems fair to wait until after church to relieve your spouse's stiff neck. And while it is nice to see couples showing their love, active physical touch is not why we're all in a church service.
ReplyDeleteMy love language is receiving gifts, so for 5 bucks, I'll go around the church and give everyone a neck rub during the sermon.
ReplyDeletePAMIC all the way- especially after this sunday, i will never sit behing that couple again! :)
ReplyDeleteI am neutral on this subject. So I can't exactly say why some of the comments I've been reading rankle me so. I normally stay away from talking/writing anything in response to these type of conversations, but I feel compelled to do so. One of the things that really bothers me is how people in a Christian community tolerate being unkind and aggressive towards each other. I understand from the comments let that this is a heated topic. As with any topic, personal opinions are expressed, and everyone has a right to express their opinion. What gets me is when it disintegrates from personal expression to an attack on the opposing view. Having a different stance and believing your stance is right doesn't give you/me the right to insult and degrae those with differing opinions. Maybe I'm far too sensitive in this area, but it bothers me when Christians can't express their opinion and stanc and leave it at that.
ReplyDeleteAs far as saying we should't do anything that offends someone else, I take a slightly different view on that. Paul says that there are certain things people find okay to do, but when it causes someone else to stumble, to refrain from doing so in their presence. Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't read anywhere to not offend people. That would be impossible to do - there's no way you could please everyone in a church setting. I'm not certain how someone in the PAMIC camp would stumble because of the actions of a CIMAP.
Like I said, I stay away from these heated conversations and am very hesitant to post. I've been in far too many "Christian arguments" and "personal expressions" and they've left me a bit weary and cynical of the so-called kindness of the Christian circle. I guess that's why I'm writing, because I like reading this blog and feel like I've finally found a down-to-earth Christian community and now a part of me questions whether it really is all the same nonsense.
anon @ 11:10
ReplyDeletei'm so sad to see you hurt by this hilarity. at 1st i thought, get a grip, it's hyperbole, but then as i read more of your comment i felt sad.
true community shows each other their scars, confesses their weaknesses, and hopefully encourages each other.
i love the community jon has drawn to SCL and i'm telling everyone i know to start reading this blog, as wellas all of your comments :)
lots of folks are ironic, some outright sarcastic, and i think only a rare few have commented in a snippy & not hateful way.
so please, anon, in love i suggest you take a big grain of salt. i think it's fun to disagree and tease and overstate. it's called joking with friends, about our differences and similarities and frailties.
peace and love to you, sincerely
oh come on anon @ 8:17am Aug 4. its all in good fun.
ReplyDeletechristy, i got distracted and forgot to tell you you're a fence-sitter :)
ReplyDeletein the pamic/cimap debate, if you're sitting on the fence you're by definition ic/ci (pronounced icky).
so choose a camp or run the risk of being sideswiped by a ninja-service furniture mover.
Wait, why would Christians not drink beer? I'm confused by the entire first paragraph.
ReplyDeleteThis was the best post to date! I love it. I fall somewhere in between a PAMIC and CIMAP but found this post to be both hilarious and informative. You make me laugh so hard some days I think I might wet myself. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteTricia :)
In response to Jet asking if the CIMAP group massages during movies,
ReplyDelete"Yes"
My husband gets uncomfortable when sitting for long periods of time so I will rub or scratch his back. mostly the scratching is to cool him off. Otherwise he'd have to get up and leave. The massage is usually due to his having a headache and if I leave the excedrin at home then all he has is his bible sipper of coffee.
We are both firm CIMAPs and we do not act differently in church than elsewhere. And it's not about making purple, we just love each other and like to be close.
Some people have said "hand-holding or an arm around a shoulder is ok" but why is that ok but nothing more? Sounds like it could become another tattoo discussion "tattoos are not ok, but piercing ears is ok as is blended cloth." Where do you draw the line.
Finally, in deference to the PAMICS of the community, I will try my best to tone down/refrain from distracting others. Who knew this was such a hot topic? Kudos to you Jon. Love the blog... (My husband has determined i'm addicted. If I stay late at work he knows it is because I was reading SCL)
I know you aren't thrilled with the idea of kids being in church. But I have to tell you that having 5 kids seated between us keeps my husband and I pretty much hands off during church. The only touching going on is when I do the ninja hand grab on my 6 yr old. Just something to consider.
ReplyDeletemistymorningmountain,
ReplyDeleteLOL!!!! :)
Jon,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you should allow anonymous comments...
People should come up with clever alter egos when they don't want their true identities revealed. Isn't that right, Hucklebuck?
Well said, Misty. Well said indeed!
ReplyDeleteNora Beerline and Stacey,
ReplyDeleteThanks! I'm here all week. Try the veal!
I'm pretty sure making purple constitutes a CIMAP affirming action. As a PAMIC leader are you sure you want to direct others to purple times?
ReplyDeleteI'm sure somebody already pointed this out, but I didn't feel like reading every comment to make sure. Sorry.
"when it comes to touching folks at church, we follow the Bible. And there's not a single example of someone in the Bible giving someone else a neck or back rub"
ReplyDeletehehhem.....
Luke 24:39
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see!
John 12:3
Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume
At the last supper "the Disciple that Jesus loved" was all cosy-ed up against him and most importantly of all....
John 13
Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet
1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.[a]
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.
6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"
7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
ALSO
Can't wait till we get to greet each other with a kiss to as we are encouraged to in the Bible....or frankly just lay hands on one another
Need I say more ;)
I have a solution. Let's return to the gender segregated ways of the 1950s. Have the guys sit on the left, and the girls sit on the right side of the church. If there is a middle row, simply take a chainsaw and split that row down the middle, making sure there is a considerable gap between each of the new pews. Or better yet, have male and female church services. That's right: A "No girls allowed!" service. We're gonna show Braveheart, wrestle, and only sing worship songs about fighting the enemy and being strong in the Lord every Sunday. I've got a few sermon ideas too. ;)
ReplyDeleteNo, Howie, no!
ReplyDeleteIf you have "no girls allowed" posted on the church door, I will cry. Cmon, you boys already have Promise Keepers, what more do you want?
I wanted to apologize if I seemed at all hurtful in what I said in the last post. I didn't mean it that way.
And I don't know what to do. Should I ask these people to stop? Or do you CIMAPers just want us Pamics to try our best to manage our distractions? Ooh, maybe I will cup my hands over my eyes so that I have a smaller line of vision. You know, like the international symbol for looking around. I know it's in a Bible song, I just can't think of it right now. I might look pretty silly, but I'm in the very last row so only the offertory people will see me.
From my perspective, this is absolutely the most hilarious thing I have read in weeks! I have to say that I am in the PAMIC Group. When I was a kid, my parents would on occasion join the CIMAP Group simply to watch me squirm with embarrassment! I think the CIMAPs should consider the lasting effects that their actions may have on their children. On the other hand, my parents, still happily married, never gave me a moment's worry of their love for each other... it just could've been done without all of the PDA!
ReplyDeleteHow about a group for people who really don't care one way or another. Since I'm the preacher, I don't really care if someone is snuggling or giving neck rubs - it doesn't really distract me from the sermon. As long as people aren't sleeping, then I'm okay.
ReplyDeleteI think this whole thing is pretty hillarious, especially due to my reading sarcasm into every comment. However, there have been a couple of comments that allude to Paul's instruction about not causing a brother to sin. To use this passage to defend PAMIC isn't really valid. Paul is talking about causing a brother to sin against his own conscious. He is specifically talking about whether or not it is appropriate to eat meat that had been offered as a sacrifice to idols. There were so many animals offered to the pagan gods, that the pagan priests couldn't eat all the meat. So, they sold it at a discounted price to the butchers. The question was whether or not one was participating in idol worship or advancing the worship to idols, since priests got money from the sale. Paul said, nothing really wrong with buying or eating it, unless you think it is a sin and you go ahead and eat. In regard to the causing a brother to sin, Paul is saying that if you cause someone to sin against their own conscious, then you have become a stumbling block and have sinned against God.
I cannot see how rubbing someone's back is remotely close to encouraging pagan worship. Nor can I see it as causing a PAMIC member to sin against their conscious.
We're getting too sensitive and to selfcentered in church. Isn't the whole reason we get together to benefit God. Church isn't really supposed to be about us. So, PAMIC and CAMPIC extend the right hand of fellowship to each other or side hug and let's go legdrop the devil.
faithful PAMIC member, all the way.
ReplyDeleteIt is certainly interesting that those who don't want to be offended by something that isn't remotely even a personal conscience area won't think of the verse where we are called to overlook an offense. And I love humor. I love sarcasm. But sometimes, comments aren't really sarcastic ... they have more than a grain of salt sprinkled on them. And I'm not a member of either club. I'm super holy and keep my eyes on the big screen or the table and chair. ;)
ReplyDeletemichelle
As long as the making purple doesn't actually happen at church... O.o eeeeww.
ReplyDeleteJon, I think an amendment needs to be made to your concession on the first point:
ReplyDeleteWe will acknowledge this as a valid reason to give someone a neck massage in church if you can prove that your significant other is a lumberjack, a forest firefighter that jumps out of planes or an Alaskan crab guy from the television program, “The Deadliest Catch and is at work all 166 other hours of the week besides the 2 hours s/he is sitting with you at church.” Otherwise, save it for home. Show a little consideration for the rest of the world.
I'm too busy nursing my baby in church (gasp!) to even notice what anyone else is doing. But I was kicked off the worship team for wearing my baby on my back during p&w. The worship pastor said it was distracting. I think people should be grown ups and stop looking for excuses to be distracted. Seriously, do some of y'all go out of your way to be easily let away?
ReplyDeleteTom's post (especially Exodus 32:9) wins this thread.
ReplyDelete