I watch an insane amount of youtube videos. From the lion that hugs the people that raised it when reunited in the wild to clips of So You Think You Can Dance and everything in between, I heart short, funny, serious, interesting clips.
So when someone sent me a link to a recent church service that was making the rounds, I was more than happy to oblige. I liked the video. The church did a beautiful job executing a really honest, emotional idea. The whole thing was amazing. Well, perhaps I shouldn’t say whole thing because in order to consume as much content as possible, I rarely watch from start to finish. The other day when I mentioned the video in question to a friend he asked me what I thought about the very end. I didn’t have an opinion because I had stopped the video before it completed. He urged me to go back and watch the whole thing, so I did.
It was just as beautiful the second time. The truth and authenticity of the experience had not diminished. I was being invited to share in something special. It was creative, and touching and engaging. And then the minister asked for money.
The entire mood of the video radically changed with this completely unexpected financial discussion. The words the pastor said are not the real issue, and at one point during his brief statement it almost feels like he realizes what’s just happened. But it’s too late, because as a speechwriter once said, “It’s not what you say, it’s what people hear that matters.” And what my friends and I heard in this situation was “This beautiful thing we just did was our way to talk to you about supporting the church financially.” Was that his intent? Maybe not. Is it impossible to take a few minutes of a sermon that probably touched many lives and pretend you know what was going on that Sunday? Probably. Is the issue of asking people for money at church extremely difficult? Without a doubt.
My dad’s a pastor, so in some ways I am probably uniquely qualified to write this and horribly biased at the same time. I mean if people had given more money to his church perhaps I could have had nicer pants or a fancier, more interesting haircut when I was growing up. But I didn’t. I had a pretty normal haircut and some pretty normal pants. I don’t blame my dad, just like I don’t blame that minister in the video, asking for money at church is really weird but really necessary too in some ways. So today, I thought it might be good to talk about a few ways we can all do a better job at that:
How to ask for money at church:
1. Kill the sentence every pastor says.
Regardless of the denomination, the language or the location, there is one sentence that almost every pastor on the planet has said at some point and here it is: “If this is your first time visiting, I promise we don’t always talk about money.” This is usually said on the one or two Sundays you talk about money every year. And I understand the need, but by saying that you tell the congregation and the visitors, “Here comes something that is going to suck.” You forecast that discussing money is a gross thing. And although it can be, it doesn’t have to be. But by approaching it that way you essentially train us to be unreceptive to what you’re about to say. So let’s kill that sentence.
2. Change the environment.
This one would probably get a pastor fired, but what if they removed all the seats before service? If you have pews this might be impossible, but if you have chairs, take them all out. Tell people that you understand how odd it is to be asked for money in church and so you’ve decided to respect that by cutting costs a few different ways. Tell us we should stand during the entire service and then proceed to preach on the Bible. Not a book, or a chapter or a verse, the entire thing. Then just keep preaching until everyone’s legs eventually give out and we collapse to the floor exhausted. Then come around and take our money out of our purses and wallets while we are too weak to fight back. Wait, I think that just turned into cat burglary. But in all seriousness, I’m pretty entitled when it comes to church. I just expect Kristian Stanfill to show up and lead worship and the lights to work and the Sunday School classrooms to be overflowing with free goldfish for my children. I tend to take church for granted and that is not cool on my part. So take away my chair please until I realize my tithe helps pay for that seat.
3. Put on a musical with dancing nuns.
As my friend Curtis reminded me the other day, that seemed to work pretty well in the Sister Act movies on a number of levels. For one thing, Whoopi Goldberg was able to hide out from the mafia. They were also able to save the orphanage or convent. And they got to sing and dance with Lauryn Hill. Soooo, if your pastor is on the run from the mob, you’ve got a ministry that is struggling and you have access to one of the members of the Fugees, that should work out just fine.
Those are silly, sort of, but money is one of those big issues in Christian culture. And the truth is that I’ll probably write about tithing and giving and offering buckets and how people stare at you when you don’t drop anything in even though I mail my check so I technically don’t have anything to drop in lady, so stop staring and go back to awkwardly rubbing your husband’s neck during the entire service. You are killing me.
But if I ever started a church, here is what I think I might say about money:
“Money is a weird subject to hear about in a church on a Sunday. I agree. I’m a little sweaty too just saying ‘money’ and ‘church’ in the same sentence. But when you look at the Bible, it doesn’t treat money as a weird subject. From the detailed beauty of the resources used to create the temple to the dangers that hide in the weeds like lions when we have too much, the Bible doesn’t whimper quietly when it comes to money. And so I don’t want to either. I don’t want to pretend that one sermon a year is enough to equip you for the more than 5,000 marketing messages you see every day asking you for money. Telling you how to use it and get more of it and worship it. This isn’t going to be about tithing, this going to be about truth. Because I think when we engage with the truth we’ll find that tithing isn’t simply something we have to do, it’s something we’ll want to do.”
I dig the whole post, but I was uniquely grabbed by:
ReplyDelete"so stop staring and go back to awkwardly rubbing your husband’s neck during the entire service. You are killing me."
Freaking seriously, what's up with these people?! I mean, I'm married, I'm close with my wife, but I don't feel the need to be tingled, tickled, rubbed, or any other form of intimate touch throughout a sermon!
this is one of those issues that everyone can understand..you can call money resources, finances, tithes, giftings, offering, first fruits and donations but in the end, it's still money. and we gotta ask you for it.
ReplyDeleteby the way jon, you won't believe it but the two youtubes i watched right before i read your post were the so you can think dancers and that christian lion giving his friends the side hug.
Another side of it is, as an usher, when all you want to do is just pass the plate around and people act like it is going to burn them if they touch it so they just ignore you. I'm over here like "Seriously, I don't care if you put anything in, just pass the plate to the next person so I don't have to stand here awkwardly trying to get your attention." It's quite similar to herding cats, except it is at church...with people!
ReplyDeleteMoney is a sensitive issue, and it certainly doesn't help that there are many highly publicized examples of prominent pastors taking advantage of their congregation's charity.
ReplyDeleteTelevangilism should also be banned by Christiandom.
"Did you like the 5 minute snippet of my last message? Do you think that the next 5 minutes of what I say could change your life? If you do just send your LOVE GIFT of $50 or more, and we will send you the whole series!...You know, because this is how Jesus offered His message."
While we are banning sentences, can we ban the phrase "Love gift" and "Love offering". You are not asking for my love, you are asking for my money whether or not I love you(particularly on T.V), so call a spade a spade.
Getting people to understand the importance of finances, and giving to the Kingdom of Heaven might be a little easier if so-called "prosperity preachers" weren't "balling" phatter than any rapper or pop star.
Surely God wants us to have the best of things, but it shouldn't be at the expense of your congregation. And should you be living in a $5M house and driving a $100K car, or should you live in a $500K house and BUILD 50 low-income houses for the the other $4.5M, and drive a $15K car and then have 10 cars that the needy in your congregation can temporarily borrow for free?
I KNOW that 99.99% of pastors are not like this, and I KNOW that 99.99% of pastors are fighting the good fight of faith and working 100 hour weeks to further the salvation and sanctification of God's people.
It is just a shame that people are so jaded by the .01% who have become very successful in manipulating the Gospel for their own gain (Even if that isn't what they initially intended to do)that the majority have to struggle to break out of the stigma that either all Pastor's are corrupt or that if the Pastor is not on T.V. or does not own his own lear jet, than God must not be working through him.
Ok, take my soapbox away. It is just really aggravating having to educate and minister about an already sensitive subject without someone making the words "It is better to give than to receive" and ugly prostituted scripture.
Ok, breathe Aaron, breathe...
JA said,
ReplyDelete"...when we engage with the [truth]..."
[Truth is like Texas]...from a Real Texan...
~Pastors, Don't Mess w/ the Truth!
[SCL Asking For $ at Church Addendum or My De j'a Vous Experience]
Jon, Just like the 'Money Minister' in the 'Church Video' you mentioned, I too have endured
situations where
"the entire mood of the [service] radically changed with a completely unexpected financial discussion".
Example:
Back in the day, after attending a 'Free'(full of awesomeness guitars) "David & the Giants Concert" at our towns Prosperity Gospel Mega-church (just before the Encore) the Pastor takes the stage with a KFC bucket & plunks in a $100 dollar bill & asks everyone in the audience (mainly college students) do the same w/ their $...
*YUCK..! [Bad Taste in Mouth]
This Pastor not only 'blew the mood', he "Messed w/ the Truth" (and Texans) about the event being a "Free Concert".
Needless to say, I have not re-visited his 'Palace of Prosperity'.
campman62.wordpress.com
inthelight-campman62.blogspot.com
I love the last paragraph. To make it more impacting you should say all that crap, then start frothing at the mouth and pop and lock until someone has to drag you off stage. This is church. We need drama. And confusion.
ReplyDeleteI think people would fork over cash b/c they're assuming you can't afford your meds.
I'm just saying.
love the chair idea, man......
ReplyDeleteTim Keller gives great sermons about tithing.
ReplyDeleteAnd seriously...I HATE IT when couples GROPE each other in CHURCH. NOT APPROPRIATE, PEOPLE.
It bothers me that most of us don't realize that tithing is an act of worshiping our awesome and mighty God who is the giver of all good things. It's not about giving the pastor money for his own personal use. If we truly love and desire to worship our Maker, then we will tithe as He has commanded. I wrote about tithing as an act of worship in my blog back in Dec. '07. Is it rude to share my web address? If so, sorry, I'm gonna anyway -
ReplyDeletewww.christyellis.blogspot.com
and look for "What I got from Malachi - another entry from my journal"
I think if I were to suggest the chair idea to our associate pastor, he might just do that during our Sunday night service, and I don't think that would be a bad thing (except, of course, for all of the handicapped people and incredibly pregnant women that our church has). I'm going to send him this link and see if he incorporates it on the next "Yearly Tithing Day."
ReplyDeleteJon,
ReplyDeleteThank you as always for having a take on this that is clearly informed and mature. I really appreciate it. Our churches fall off of both sides of this issue, and very few get it right (and then only for a week or two, at most). Either we guilt people into giving, or we are afraid to ask so that people don't feel guilted. Both approaches do a disservice to the congregation.
It is so true that the Bible treats money like the rest of life. It doesn't separate it from worship, like we so often do. "We're done singing, now lets move to the administrative details..." No, giving is supposed to be another expression of worship.
One of my favorite things I have heard pastors say is something along the lines of "If you are not a Christian, or are a first time visitor, you are our guest, please don't give. But if you call this church 'home,' give, and give generously, as a response to the truth of God and His word."
Can we please remove the word 'tithe' from our vocabulary? I'm convinced, and willing to argue, that this concept as taught in many evangelical churches is deeply unbiblical, for a whole bunch of reasons.
ReplyDeleteThe tithe in the old testament went to the priesthood. The modern-day pastorate is NOT equivalent to the old testament priesthood. As a member of the priesthood of all believers, maybe that tithe should be coming in my direction...
Maybe we could talk about that oft-quoted passage in 1 Corinthians 16 - you know, where Paul is passing around the plate for the Corinthian church's new building campaign? Oh, wait, no. It was for the poor believers back in Jerusalem. So sure, pass around the plate in your suburban mega-church, but I hope that all the cash is earmarked for a poor congregation in the Phillipines.
I feel very strongly on this. I believe that we're called to live lives of abundant generosity and sacrifice, but the '10% tax to your local church' concept frustrates me no end.
OK....I feel the need to share this even though the only thing it has to do with the post is the neck-rubbing thing.
ReplyDeleteA few weeks ago I was surveying the crowd at church (I sit in a balcony-type seat) and near the front I spy this man in his mid to late 40s rubbing this teenage boy's back. The kid is leaning forward almost double in his seat...and then this guy (I am kind of hoping it was his dad, but still) LIFTS UP HIS SHIRT TO THE NECK and starts rubbing up there. It was so weird! If I had some skittles I would have thrown them at him to get them to stop.
"Because I think when we engage with the truth we’ll find that tithing isn’t simply something we have to do, it’s something we’ll want to do.”
ReplyDeleteAmen.....that's all I have to say about that.
Tithing ... it's what it is. But, regarding this post. Intimate touching in church (first commenter's words) is the weirdest thing ever! I usually sit in front because I'm involved, but I sat in the back once and couldn't pay attention to anything I was so distracted by all the couples making out in the pews.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing? What is UP with Goldfish in the Children's Center? Ok, I have no kids ... but I didn't even know that Goldfish came in 3 pound, milk-carton looking, packages!
I really liked the quote at the end - what you're going to say when you have a church. I think that is very wise. Thank you for a very honest post about a sore (but shouldn't be) subject. :)
ReplyDeleteI may just use your entire last paragraph as the quote on my e-mail.
ReplyDeleteI think it's hilarious that we let thousands of marketers tell us exactly where to put our money for the entire year without complaining at all (most of the time praising them for their ingenuity) and then when a pastor preaches the Word of God people freak out and start screaming, "Don't you DARE tell me what to do with my money!"
ReplyDeleteYour money is not your own. Same as your life is not your own, nor your house or car or anything you have. It is a gift from God. God can take it all away in a blink of an eye so why do we hold so tightly to our money?
Remember the woman at the Temple who gave her last two coins? Jesus praised her gift not because of how big it was, but because of the sacrifice it took to give. Her heart was in the right place. She trusted God to really provide for her needs.
The only times I've refused to give back financially to God's work was when I was not following His Word. I made all the standards excuses (I can't afford it, The church is greedy anyway, etc.) but when it came down to it, I was just being disobedient.
I've been lucky to have a pastor who boldly preaches the Word of God whether it is on money, or sex or relationships or anything else. And like he says, "The only people who get upset when you preach about tithing is the people who don't tithe."
anon @ 7:08-
ReplyDeletei think chris hansen should start going to your church. as a newsman/ investigator.
jon, last para was great. i was told "giving" is from the heart, whereas tithing is something pharisees make sure they do, (after figuring out whether they can tithe net instead of gross.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGreat discussion on what is a very touchy subject for a lot of Christians!
ReplyDeleteHere is a simple truth that has really hit me just over the last year - none of "my" money is mine anyway. None of it. It all belongs to God. All of it.
When you start to think of your entire paycheck as God's (because it really is) instead of maybe just 10%, it changes your perspective and the things you choose to spend your money on.
Take as an example the parable of the talents - I think many times our rewards (maybe in this life, most likely in the next) will be based on how we manage God's resources here on earth...just a thought.
A good book to read is "The Treasure Principle".
Just my 2 cents(I mean God's 2 cents! Ha.)...
I think a post on tithing would be interesting. I always had the idea hammered into my head as a kid (not literally) that one always tithed. No matter what. So I'm always a bit confused/intrigued by other thoughts on the matter. (Not that it would really change my own. Hammering and all.)
ReplyDeleteI've stated my thoughts on personal touching in church before, but why not repeat my thoughts in a slightly different format: watching neck massages in church makes me want to stomp through a field of wildflowers and flip off butterflies. In other words, slightly grouchy.
great post! you're hitting a senstive topic right on the head. AND now i know that if i find myself sitting next to vinny or guido on a Sunday morning i'll be sure to look for the dancing nuns...thanks bro!
ReplyDeletei want to hear that sermon.
ReplyDeleteJon, the last paragraph is a prime example of why I'm often checking in. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, there is a verse that cuts through the clutter of all the debating about tithing. Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. If we love people, we will want to help them. Ultimately, that's what giving is about.
Thanks, eastern ky pastor. That verse and those at the end of chapter 2 are a great portrayal of shared life. I see a huge difference between that kind of mutual compassion and the typical 10% church tax that is frequently taught. But I have to admit, we don't have very many modern models of Acts 4 churches - do you know of any?
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be amazing if the church didn't need the reminder from the pulpit that money is a gift from God to be used for His purpose because we already knew it and acted accordingly? That would solve the discomfort issue and remove the need hire pickpockets in order to pay the light bill.
ReplyDeleteAgree with eastern KY pastor. And all the others that said what you have is not your own. Including your life. :)
ReplyDeleteAlso love your last para and would like to hear this sermon as well.
I wish giving at church was less like, "Hey, we have a general fund deficit again and are going to have to stop cutting programs and I know that doesn't mean much to those of you who clearly have better things to do with your money like paying for tricked-out cell phone plans and cable TV, but...just FYI." Less like that and more like in Exodus where Aaron and Moses had to STOP people from bringing things to the tabernacle. And this was in the desert where they weren't going to be getting any more, so I don't think "gas prices are SOOO high now" is a great excuse for not tithing.
ReplyDeleteWow - And I have to admit... I would be all about your message if that is how you started it. Way to make it real. And not seem liek you're trying ot be sneaky, but cool at the same time.
ReplyDeleteI think "genuine" is probably the biggest characteristic people look for in a church and a pastor, and unfortunately, the one characteristic that can be the hardest to find.
Trevor,
ReplyDeleteDon't have much time to talk about this today.
I know of no church in America that matches the ideal of Acts 2. But, let's also remember that in just a few days following this attitude is the complaining over Gentile widows not being cared for like the Jewish widows. So, even the Acts 2 church had problems.
Yet, I think generally speaking that we are pretty selfish. I know I'm constantly discovering new areas of self-centeredness.
I can't remember whose sermon it was, but a few months ago I listened to a CD, in which the preacher said that if all Christians in America were to tithe, that we would have enough money to end world hunger right now. That really convicts me. And when I think of my persecuted brothers and sisters, who aren't asking for relief from persecution, but are pleading for Bibles and instruction... how can I be selfish any longer?
Maybe if we start looking at giving as an opportunity for God to use us to answer someone's prayers for help, we wouldn't give grudgingly. Maybe if we stopped thinking of paying the preacher, but being grateful for someone who sacrifices his life and family for me, we wouldn't be as stingy. Maybe, if we started thinking of giving as celebrating how God has been providing for us, we'd look forward to offering. Maybe, the day will come when we'll stop asking how much do I have to give, and start praying, "Lord, give me the financial freedom to allow me to give more."
And I must say - I don't understand how a congregation's giving should effect the salary of a pastor. I understand getting raises, etc., but in the church where I grew up, and in the one I currently attend, the pastor's paycheck was for the same amount on July 23rd as it was after Easter Sunday, when everyone really gives a lot more. Seriously - it was just as small every week of the year as it was when they had a week of larger giving.
ReplyDeleteI guess I just always feel that's how it should be.
I totally agree Jon. Thanks for the good word. I have been pondering lately the whole issue of money as it pertains to the poor... another subject little discussed by us but greatly discussed by God. I am convinced that until God obey God's commnds to give, realizing that others Needs are much greater than my Wants I will choose to live in middle class bliss, merely praying for the poor instead of giving to them. Intrestingly, of the many descriptions God gives for the poor, the Levites are among them- our pastors who depend on us giving so that you can have some ZCavarichi jeans (or some Chuch Taylors). Its too easy to forget that we are given so we can give!
ReplyDeleteif all Christians in America were to tithe, that we would have enough money to end world hunger right now. .
ReplyDeleteBut it's not that simple, is it? Let's face it, if all the money that is currently spent on church facilities, programs and buildings (which, let's face it, are for the benefit of the people paying for them) was instead given to ending hunger and poverty, I'm sure it would make a huge dent in the problem.
Currently I believe around 2% of church giving goes to overseas missions, and I suspect a small fraction of that goes to physical aid.
Giving money to your local church so you can have a nicer building, a better sound system, a cooler roster of speakers, is not sacrificial. It's self indulgent. If 10% is what you want to give, then fine, but follow Paul's example and direct it straight to our poorest brothers and sisters, rather than hoarding it in our nice suburbs.
Paul was collecting for the poor and persecuted church in Jerusalem when he wrote about the subject in Corinthians. Who would be the equivalent recipients today?
so, yeah. that video killed me... because i loved it until the end... although, i'm sure there was a phat love offering following it... and others who felt tricked. that probably is pretty typical within a crowd hearing about and participating in giving/tithing experiences. i wish someone from The Village church in Farmers Branch, TX would blog about their fundraising experience... I have heard about it, but couldn't be accurate... and it sounded like the most honest authentic amazing experience... please, someone tell us the story...
ReplyDeleteI think eastern KY pastor is smart.
ReplyDeleteThe church I attended for thirty years chased television theatrics so much the last decade that I finally left it. One of the items they picked up along the way is the practice of reading, as the body, a "faith" statement just before taking up an offering. It lists a belief that God, in return for their giving, will bless them in everything from finding loose change in the living room sofa to long lost relatives dying and leaving behind an inheritance. I kid you not: about the only thing not covered is winning the lottery (which is considered "sinful", but not so much that the pastor would not be willing-he has said so himself-to take the tithes off of anyone who wished to donate from such source)......
ReplyDeleteEach year my church does a musical called the Gospel according to Scrooge, you can imagine the story line if you've never seen it. But the most awkward point of the play is during intermission when the head pastor would come out and ask for money! We aren't putting on this play for money we are putting on this play to bring people to know Him more. Finally after about the 16th annual play they decided to just have donation buckets at the door for people to give if they so choose. A little less awkward, but since I don't greet at the door those nights I can't speak for those people.
ReplyDeleteFund raising for youth (and I assume other ministries) is the same way too.
maybe you could do a post about tithing... and then include something about "commitment cards" I hate those! Maybe you've never had them... but they are annoying.
So true. I am glad that my church just has a drop box at the back of the church. I hate when everyone watches to see if you tithe (I do tithe, but sometimes I mail my check). Have you ever been to one of those churches where everyone has to carry their money up to the front? That's the worst. It seems totally for show to me, or maybe to guilt people into giving.
ReplyDeleteI also think that people need to understand how important tithing is. I go to a small church, but I know that we wouldn't struggle as much as we do, if everyone tithed. It's frustrating.
Hear, hear! Money is a touchy subject in churches. It shouldn't be, of course, because like you pointed out, the Bible isn't shy about money, but it is. We feel we need to justify ourselves because of the very few televangelists (and others like them) who have stolen people's money with lies. Yes, we need to keep our churches accountable, but to say, "okayit'stimetogiveyourmoneynow" and act like you're ashamed of it is just silly.
ReplyDeleteBut I do like the getting rid of the chairs idea to encourage giving. I grew up in very small churches, and there were a lot of times we didn't have enough money. That may have been an effective solution. ;o)
One last thing: the church my husband grew up in doesn't even pass an offering plate. They have a secure, locked box in the back of the sanctuary that people just go put their money/checks in. No frills, no worrying about touching the offering plate but not putting anything in... it's just you and God. I think that's a fantastic idea.
You know, for those of us who have the revelation that money is not ours, but a gift from God, and for His purpose, preaching on money IS NOT a sensitive or touchy subject.
ReplyDeleteIt is for those that have yet to receive that revelation, and especially for those who have been burned by dishonest people perverting the Word of God for selfish gain.
I am sorry if I don't blame them for being skeptical.
The issue is those dishonest people have prostituted the very scriptures that we need to use to educate the body about tithing and giving. But they have made it embarrassing for honest preachers and ministries who DO NEED funds to spread the gospel to ask those same people.
Should they be embarrassed? No. They SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE!! But they are human, and pouring salt on an open wound isn't very appealing all the time.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteAustinStone is doing a segment on this right now. This upcoming Sunday will be the third week, and you can check out the podcasts from the first two by visiting "austinstone.org"
On a side note, the word tithe comes from the original word of "tenth" so the whole argument of "tithing can be what you want it to be" doesn't really apply.
"I don’t want to pretend that one sermon a year is enough to equip you for the more than 5,000 marketing messages you see every day asking you for money."
ReplyDeleteUm, not to get picky or anything, but wouldn't you be delivering "flow" from the pulpit as opposed to a "sermon"? Or have you secretly been attending seminary?
Just keepin' it real, PJ.
M3
Great post and an even better of ending.
ReplyDeleteI'm so thankful I didn't grow up with a pastor (with a mullet) who sat on a throne next to his wife (who has so much make-up on she looked like she just got crushed in a paintball match) and after preaching about Noah's Ark, he pleads for money lest they all drown too. (or some other awkward connection from the text) :)
Then again - since my pastor was my dad and thus his wife my mom, I can't imagine the obscene bills I would be paying for therapy still if they were like that.
Thanks again Jon.
PJ,
ReplyDeletewhen you start your church and need some doe,
i think that doing massage lines and having a social church kegger (where alcohol consumption is moderated or handled responsably)would definately be a way of getting money... i mean.. when you're being pampered and chemically induced smiley.... who doesn't loosen their grip on their green?
I just recently subscribed to your blog and just wanted to tell you that I love reading what you write--I laugh and I'm challenged all in one read. Fabulous. By the way, amen to the last paragraph and if you haven't already you should post about odd sightings during church services. (the neck-rubbing is just the tip of the iceberg)
ReplyDeleteI like the way our church talks about money. We go verse-by-verse through the Bible, so when money comes up, it's talked about. In context of Scripture, straightforwardly and without any excuses or apologies. Just the unvarnished Truth. Very cool.
ReplyDeletePlus...I really like your chair idea. It's the same way you deal with toddlers...
To Trevor Morgan
ReplyDeleteRight on! You hit the nail on the head in both of your posts. Those were my thoughts exactly.
that lion video is amazing...
ReplyDeleteI think one of the biggest problems with churches and money is the teaching on tithing. I know it's convenient for churches to be able to put that 10% benchmark in so that people have something objective to shoot for in budgeting for their giving. However, tithing is only a REQUIREMENT under the law. In the NT we are actually called to a much greater level of giving. When churches teach that all God requires of us financially is the 10% and the other 90% is "ours" they fail to understand God's will in this. All we have comes from Him, and is for the work of the Kingdom. ALL of it. And yes feeding the kids is Kingdom work. We need to see all our spending as spending of God's money for God's work. When put in proper context generous giving to the church and other ministries comes naturally and doesn't have to be coerced out of people like getting blood out of a stone.
ReplyDeleteAs to we have to ask in order to get money thing. I would love to see a church say we're not going to ask, we'll just pass the buckets, and give our people an example of trusting in the Lord for provision rather than in motivational speaking ability to guilt trip people into giving.
I'd love to go into a longer discussion on why tithing isn't a NT priciple, but if you check out my blog there's a piece from last yr on this, where I went through all the biblical references on it.
I like to break budgets down just to gain perspective on things. Lets imagine a church with 300 members supporting it financially by giving one day's wages each month. Let's just say for the sake of easy calculation that they average about $10/hr and work 40hrs/wk. Think of it this way, each person is getting paid for for their work for 19 days and on the 20th they work for free. From that 300 people the church would receive $24 000 each month . . . not too shabby.
ReplyDeleteThough I have no idea how much it costs to operate a church of any size whatsoever.
Oh yeah and what is with the creepy neck massage? Yeah I severely dislike seeing that too.
ReplyDeleteIn the same manner that I use Stuff White People Like as a guidepost for avoiding the silly, the overrated, and the downright reprehensible among caucasion-American urban dwellers, I think I'll start using this site for doing the same as an evangelical.
ReplyDeleteThanks a mill!
You should also give some props to Chip MacGregor if you have a sudden influx of traffic...
Quick reminder for all of us everywhere God gave us everything good when we tithe it is a celebration of his Love and our gratitude and when you understand Gods system over the worlds system its like man where has my brain been, people all over this country are loosing there homes they had mortgages and all with some kind of percentage to pay the bank back and hoping one day to get a return on that money this world system is messed up. God cares about your well being just try his system for a while and tithe with Love in your heart and see if your life doesn’t change for the better. PS: a Pastor spends most of there time praying for there flock and thank God I mean I am sure my banker is a good person but I doubt he is spending a great deal of time focusing on my Salvation.
ReplyDeleteHey if you don't want to tithe, don't. Just don't complain when reap the seeds of disobedience.
ReplyDeletegreat post.
ReplyDeleteLauren Hill is actually, "Lauryn Hill"
thanks for keeping up the blog!
At my church we never take up an offering. In our bulletin we tell people that if you wish to tithe their is a box at the back where you can place your offering. That is the only mention for 51 Sundays out of the year. Then usually the third Sunday in January we get a teaching on tithing. No mention of where the boxes are has ever been said from the Pulpit. After the Titheing teaching we are dismissed and who ever wants to stay stays and the Fincace commitee opens the books of the past years spending.
ReplyDeleteAs a body we give to missions and benovlence 30% or more every year. All of our needs haev always been met.
I saw the clip you are referring to and had the same thoughts...'AGHGHGH! Why did you have to ruin it, pastor?'
ReplyDelete"Hey if you don't want to tithe, don't. Just don't complain when reap the seeds of disobedience."
ReplyDeleteuh since it isn't commanded under the new covenant its a little hard to disobey a commandment that doesn't exist! If an individual feels they should be giving 10% then good for them. It frustrates me that people try to guilt others into a practice that is no longer required though. Apart from the unnecessary guilt and pressure (i've heard pastors say if you didn't tithe you were stealing from God and detailed an extra amount you should pay if you miss a tithe one week) it risks putting an uneven burden on people. Some people could probably give 20% without any problems and for some people being able to find anything at all to put in is a huge stretch. As a church community we should be supporting those struggling, not manipulating them to give money they can't afford to the church.
Ugh. Every week, when the offering plate goes around, our pastor and/or worship leader, whoever happens to be talking as the offering starts, says something to this effect:
ReplyDelete"We're going to take our offering at this time. If you're a guest with us this morning, please don't feel obligated to give. This is something that we as members do to support the mission of the church."
The implication behind that sentence? "If you are a member, you will feel obligated to give to support the mission of the church." It drives me crazy.
Here's a few ways our church has dealt with this....
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzVKPtDdjR4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DzGJx3QZSI
I'm impressed by the way our church handles it. There are buckets on the side of the church, and before communion (which we do every week at the front of the church), one of the pastors will make a comment about how if you're a guest, we don't want your money, because the church is well-supported by its members. During the membership class, members can learn more about the church's views on tithing and giving. I love this because I think it both challenges committed members to give at a level appropriate for them and their consciences, but also lets guests know that our church is serious about not wanting money just to get money.
ReplyDeleteTrevor, your last post was dead on. Honestly I often have misgivings about tithing (or giving, whatever you want to call it) because I don't know how much of that will end up being spent on the church's own indulgences. God never meant the tithe to be a mandatory way of financing a new sound system. He meant it for the poor and needy, not just within the church but outside it as well.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that if you look closely in the Old Testament, even the original "tithe" had that intention. The priests only got 10% of the tithe, so 1% of everyone's earnings. Shane Claiborne writes about this subject in The Irresistible Revolution.
So once upon a time, I was visiting a church and the title of the sermon was "The inevitable subject" or something like that. The bulletin is for sure still stuck in my bible. But anyway, I thought they were going to talk about death because death is inevitable. But no, they talked about how they just built more onto the building and they need more money. Grr. They should really have visitors leave when that happens.
ReplyDeleteAlso, this reminds me of showing all these sad pictures of impoverished children to college students (who have no money) and basically saying if we don't give what we have, these kids will die. Which is probably true, but I don't really think that is the way to motivate people. That's kind of a subject in and? of itself.
I agreed with you up until this comment:
ReplyDelete"Because I think when we engage with the truth we’ll find that tithing isn’t simply something we have to do, it’s something we’ll want to do."
And there's another thing Christians like but shouldn't, because tithing is not a practice taught in the New Testament, any more than circumcision or animal sacrifices. We should give willingly as we are able and as the Holy Spirit leads us. Putting legalism on people just increases the stigma of the topic of money and giving to the church. Church members should be encouraged to participate as they are able, and it shouldn't need to be brought up on Sunday morning when visitors should instead be hearing the Gospel, not the church's financial woes.
And before you jump on my case to disagree, do yourself a favor and do some research. Start here:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
This is late, but I just have to comment on something. I once attended a church that had set up automatic bank withdrawal for giving. Like those who mail in their checks, the auto withdrawal people didn't have anything to dump in the plate. (Gasp!) So this church would give you little laminated cards to put in the offering plate, if you signed up for auto withdrawal.
ReplyDeleteI thought that was the scariest thing ever. Seriously, people! Are we paying THAT much attention to what our neighbor puts in? Sick.
Box at the back is one of the better ideas for giving. But then, no guilt factor, alas. Guilt is one of those other things Christians like...
I was once doing announcements for my church and made a harmless little joke about money.
ReplyDeleteIt was our habit to say that visitor's were not expected to give but could if they wanted to and we would ask that if you called this church home you would help out with the finances. I decided that the first part was good but I wanted to mix it up a little for the regulars. So I said if you called this church you home I wanted you to give until you bleed.
I have not done announcements again.
But that does bring up a good way to get out of volunteering positions you don't want to serve in, just make some bad jokes or swear.
Funny thing is I am still good enough to speak in front of the kids. Go figure.
I was once doing announcements for my church and made a harmless little joke about money.
ReplyDeleteIt was our habit to say that visitor's were not expected to give but could if they wanted to and we would ask that if you called this church home you would help out with the finances. I decided that the first part was good but I wanted to mix it up a little for the regulars. So I said if you called this church you home I wanted you to give until you bleed.
I have not done announcements again.
But that does bring up a good way to get out of volunteering positions you don't want to serve in, just make some bad jokes or swear.
Funny thing is I am still good enough to speak in front of the kids. Go figure.
I don't believe we should ask for money. We certainly shouldn't preach tithing since tithing is not spoken about at all in the New Testament. Tithing was an Old Testament practice where people gave of whatever they had (crops, whatever) to the priests because the priests had no land inheritance in the promised land.
ReplyDeleteI always like going to 2 Cor. 9:7 - Every man, as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give, not grudgingly or of necessity, for God loveth a cheerful giver. Notice what Paul says there, not grudgingly or of necessity. That means we shouldn't try to guilt someone into giving, because they shouldn't grudgingly hand over their money. Also, we shouldn't put it forward as a necessity, using the rigid 10% rule. A person may say, "well, I gotta give that 10% this Sunday." Wrong attitude. You might as well keep that money if you give it that way. God loveth a cheerful giver, one who is freely giving from a thankful heart.
Also, who did the money go to in the New Testament? The poor saints. Not the unsaved heathen. Not the local church. Not for a new building or fancy new sound equipment. Not for a foreign mission board. For the poor saints who needed assistance. We have saints here and abroad who need monetary assitance in the worst way and somewhere right now a preacher who makes 6 figures is asking for money for his church. Is this what the bible endorses?
One thing that I despise is this, and I think it's totally unscriptural and against everything Jesus advocated: when a preacher pulls out the old "the heathen are dying and going to hell at this rate and its on you (congregation) to give more money to us in order to stop this." First of all, that's against everything scripture has to say about giving. Secondly, that's not God honoring, that's man honoring. Finally, that's extortion of your church body.
Giving ought to be something done purely from the heart of a believer and it is between him and God. God never commands me to give 10%, to give to the dead alien sinner, or to support some man made system. He does, however, command me to freely give what is in my heart to give knowing that he who sows sparingly shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows abundantly shall also reap abundantly. He also commands me to love the brethren, and I believe part of love is seeing to their needs. You see, it's not about the preacher, it's about the believer and God.
I really liked your closing paragraph. Great way to address money in church.
ReplyDelete