Pages

Tuesday, July 15, 2008

Remix - #34. Subtly finding out if you drink beer too.

I am not a great debater. If you asked me to come to a debate, I would ask, "Is there an eagle on the panel?" You would reply no, and then I would decline your offer. I am OK with that, the goal of this site is not to debate or make my argument do verbal push ups and eat protein shakes until it gets strong enough to beat up your argument. The goal of the site is to instigate, to give you a hammer carved of pure sarcasm with which you can smash up old thoughts, ideas you accidentally inherited from your parents and all the other silly stuff we deal with as Christians.

That's why I had to remix the post I wrote about alcohol.

This has been a fun, crazy couple of days at the SCL. (I call it "the SCL" because that sounds like "The OC" which makes me feel cooler than I really am.) Last week, the post about whether tattoos are sinful opened up a whole can of brightly colored worms. And then a few days later the post about the show, Family Guy, did the same thing. And I think that's good.

I don't have all the right answers. I wish I did, because I would grind them up and make a spray called "Cool Answer Cologne." Then when your friend was confused about something you could just squirt them in the face until they understood. Or parents could mist their teenagers while they slept at night to make sure they did not get a cheek piercing. (which I am cool with)

But until I develop that cologne, I think it's great we can disagree and argue and teach each other. And hopefully today's post will give us all the opportunity to do that. Because as much as I like blogs where the writer debates you, that's not what I'm here to do. I'm here to instigate.

Remix:
I think that there are a few divisional issues when it comes to the Christian faith in the year 2008. Some are big and deep, some are small and shallow, but all of them are ideas that we end up taking sides on. One of my favorite, is alcohol.

If you are a Christian that drinks a beer after mowing the lawn or has a glass of red wine, there is a tricky little game you play when you meet new Christians. It's called "do these Christians drink too?"

The reason you play this game is not that you're afraid of looking bad in front of people that don't. I have friends that choose not to drink and they never get on me about having beer. They never try to choke hold for drinking wine. Not at all. But there are people that will leg drop you if they find out you drink. People that will say things like, "I really think all the bad things that happened to you are God punishing you for starting to drink wine." (Real quote from a friend)

And there's never been a good way to smoke these people out. A guide, as it were, to find out who is going to punch you in the face with judgmentalism and who is going to love you where you are regardless of what you are drinking. Until now.

This is the official Stuff Christians Like Subtle Guide to finding out if another Christian drinks too. (The OSCLSGTFOIACDT if you will)

1. The Garage Poke
Studies show that 78% of all Christians hide their beer in the garage when people they don't know that well come over. OK, I conducted the study and the research methods are suspect at best, but trust me, it's true. Make up an excuse to go to the garage and then poke around. Don't snoop. Snooping is what the lady on "Murder She Wrote" did. Just poke, there's a huge difference.

2. The Move
This one takes commitment. You either have to help them move or move yourself. Is selling your house and buying a new one worth discovering if your friend drinks too? Depends, how long are you expecting to know them? What, you don't want to invest in them by faking a move across town? I guess you and I are different. The key is to see what type of moving boxes they use. People often go to liquor stores to get boxes when they move. Ask about the wine boxes they are using. If they say, "I had to go to that pit of hell liquor store for these," do not offer them a Sam Adams Summer Ale.

3. The Key Chain
This one is much easier to execute. Just look at their key chain. If they have a bottle opener on it, you're all set. No one ever drinks enough soda to need to carry a bottle opener around full time.

4. The Soda
Speaking of soda, bring a six pack of old school soda over as a housewarming gift. Make sure you bring bottles that have tops that will not unscrew. Then, watch carefully to see what they do next. Do they instantly go to the drawer where the bottle opener is? Do they seem familiar with it? Does it fit the contour of their hand easily from years of usage? Is there a picture of Bud Light's dog, Spuds Mackenzie on it? They might drink beer if there is.

5. The Anything
When you are going to come over their house, call a few days before and offer to "bring anything you need, like drinks." Make sure you stress the word "anything" over and over again. What is so great about this move is that it puts the pressure back on them. Now, they are faced with the decision to ask you to bring wine or Sprite. What will they say, what will they say? Oh the intrigue!

6. The Traveler
One of my favorite places on the planet is the Garage Cafe & Bar in Birmingham, Alabama. It's an antique store built out of old horse stalls with a huge open courtyard that spills a sea of statues and period furniture under a blanket of white Christmas lights and dark sky. At night it's a beautiful place to have a beer and feel poetic. If I tell you that story and the only words you hear are "bar" and "beer" then chances are we feel different about drinking. Tell a story about a place you've visited and see if the first reaction is, "A bar? You went to a bar? Do you think you'll get a fold out couch bed in hell or a bunk bed when you go?"

7. The Ask
Just come on out and say, "did you know Sam Adams Summer Ale has grains of paradise in it? It's a spice that someone felt deserved the name 'grains of paradise.' That's like building a car and naming it, 'super duper awesome bestest car in the world.' Do you enjoy premium lager like I do?" It's more direct but at least you won't have to stage a fake move.

This is not about drunkenness. This is not about my friends that are alcoholics. This is not about getting hammered and pulling a "Noah." I think things like that are clearly called referenced in the Bible. But does it say that a single drink is a sin? I read this today on a website, "There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy." And then it said, "The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine." Which was news to me.

But then it said "1 Corinthians 5:11 says if a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him." That seemed really strong until I read the actual verse, which reads, "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler."

I think there's a big difference between "drinker" and "drunkard" and I don't like that the five other characteristics of a sinful person are completely ignored by yanking "drinker" out of context. But I could easily be wrong.

But that's my question for the day, is a single drink a sin? Is that something International Christians in other countries argue about? Is a glass of wine labeled wrong in the Bible?

Let's talk.

188 comments:

  1. Totally not wrong. Can't believe your friend said that. 90% of all Christians on Earth drink wine...in Church!

    ReplyDelete
  2. Your friend's wine quote reminded me of one I received a few years ago (and harks back to the Family Guy issue):

    "I don't see how someone with the spirit of Jesus inside them can watch The Simpsons."

    We broke up a few days later.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Drinking isn't wrong. I mean, Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding in Cana. Drunkeness is the problem. Just as eating isn't a sin, but you run into a problem when you become gluttonous (is that a real word?).

    I personally, do not drink, but that's because I don't like the taste. I have nothing against drinking (my husband does on occasion). It's drunkeness that I have a problem with. It's when the drinking goes too far and gets out of hand.

    And I'm rambling SO to recap:
    drinking - not a sin
    drunkeness - is a sin

    ReplyDelete
  4. I raise my glass to you Jon (or rather I will tonight happy hour.) I find no reason why a single drink is off limits to Christians. As a medical student I am bombarded by studies that show the medicinal benefits of 3 or less drinks a day for Men, and a single drink for women (sorry gals, we guys can tolerate more). By consuming small amounts of alcohol we are protecting those "temples" fundamentalists like to focus on in their theology. I do not drink in front of people who I know struggle with addiction, but the vast majority of my friends are Christians and we go to the bar a few times a week.

    How is alcohol making me love my neighbor or my god any less?

    It isn’t

    How is alcohol making others see me differently?

    It ticks off fundamentalists, and makes a great conversation starter with those seeking a genuine relationship with Christ (Who would you rather talk to?)

    ReplyDelete
  5. Jon, you are freaking awesome. A hammer carved from sarcasm? :D Back to the issue at hand... I personally love the look of confusion some of my friends have had when they've seen me with a drink in hand, it's priceless. Drunkeness isn't cool, but hanging out with friends over a beer/alcoholic beverage of your choice is a great way to build community.

    ReplyDelete
  6. laughing out loud b/c my husband and I routinely followed variations of the methods you outline here, to find out if our friends were ok w/ alcohol. of course we were Southern Baptists then, and praise the Lord we are now Presbyterians! no more subtle interrogations, nosirree, now we just bring out the stout and shiraz with a smile.

    and remember, some people will do any amount of proof-texting and exegetical gymnastics to "twist-to-fit" into their presuppositions. why on earth would Paul take the time to make sure that our godly elders weren't drunks if what he (and God) really meant was that they were damned for touching it at all? logic helps here, people.

    good post. one of the best.

    ReplyDelete
  7. This is a great post and a hot topic with my friends lately. I just turned 21 a little over a month ago and I have been trying to distinguish for myself what is right or wrong. However, I am going to boldly state that I am of the mindset that one drink is not a sin. I think when a person crosses the line into "drunkenness" is where it becomes a sinful act, but where that line is set is between the person and God. But like you said, thats a whole other debate.
    I have a friend who does not think drinking one beer is wrong, but she refuses to go out and drink with a body of Christian friends. Instead, she will have a drink with some of her non-Christian friends because it's a way to "meet them at their level." I agree with her thought that if you are hanging with some friends who are all having a drink, it makes the situation slightly awkward if you are the odd one out. It gives the whole group a more relaxed feel if no one has to worry that the other is passing judgement. I'm not saying that you should be pressured into having a drink though, just that it is not a condemnable act if you do. Thats my opinion, anyway.

    Btw, gotta say I loved the Guide to finding out if other Christians drink. If our current conversation applies, I will usually just directly ask someone if they drink. Otherwise, I sometimes find myself using some variation of "The Traveler." Little did I know, this technique has a name and everything. Thanks for instigating a debate on a good issue, I'm anxious to read others' opions!

    ReplyDelete
  8. To tag team what Beth (and others) have said, Jesus' first recorded miracle was to make wine. But I should add that he made 120 gallons of wine. And it is clear from the context that it is the type of wine that makes you stop thinking about the type of wine... if you know what I mean, so the grape juice argument just doesn't fly.

    I appreciate that the heart of some folks who don't drink is to keep people from "stumbling," but like a pastor (with a beer in his hand) once told me: folks who think that drinking is the big issue need to stumble, because they are walking away from the gospel of grace.

    In the southern US, I have never met a more polarizing issue, but at the same time an issue that prevents so many people from hearing the gospel, because they mistake the gospel for a list of rules that make God happy with us.

    Thanks for the post, Jon. As the bumper stickers say, you "Ain't Skeered" to start something.

    Ben (with the URL)

    ReplyDelete
  9. *Drinking...It tends to be more of a "Bible-Belt-Hot-Button".
    (In the South many conservative christians choose to abstain from drinking alcohol for one reason or another)

    **My SCL Reasons to Abstain List**

    1. Being one of the youngest deacons in my "moderately conservative" Texas church, I practice abstinence & desire to be "above reproach" and "set apart" for serving the needs of others.

    2. Fact: I have an "Addictive Personality" and "Pride Issues". At age 45, I know myself alot better than I did at say 28 or even 32...
    ~Whenever brewskies were around I would consume them "in mass" (Catholics-No Pun Intended...from a former Catholic). So, again, I choose to abstain.

    3. My dad and my brother are both alcoholics and the last thing they need is another "drinking buddy/stumbling block".

    'Nuff said...
    (Careful how you "Carry On My Wayward Sons")

    **Walk as Children of Light. (Eph. 5:8)

    *Blog away and check me out at:

    inthelight-campman62.blogspot.com

    campman62.wordpress.com

    ReplyDelete
  10. I was watching the Ellen talk show one day and for some reason Ellen called some little old on the phone. When Ellen was asking her some questions, the old lady said, "I love Jesus but I like to drink a little". I love that! Though it is interesting that the lady felt like she needed to say BUT instead of AND. Anyway . . . I love Jesus AND I have 3 tattoos AND I like to drink a little (but I cringe a little when I "accidentally" catch a clip of the Family Guy so it's all good).

    ReplyDelete
  11. It seems like I'll be pleasantly in the majority of this discussion, but, like others have said, I'm cool with drinking, but not too much. I've never had a problem with alcohol, though, so I can't understand what others might struggle with there, and I wouldn't go out for drinks with a person if I knew they'd struggled with drunkenness.

    ReplyDelete
  12. For about the first five years of my life my dad had a serious drinking problem, so I was always scared to drink alcohol - fearing I would develop a drinking problem. Now that I am 14 I feel like I can handle an occasional drink and not get hooked.

    Just kidding, I'm 31, but the story about my dad is true.

    I have enjoyed a beer on occasion and don't think there is anything wrong with it. I just always want to be very careful who sees me do it - I don't ever want to make anybody stumble, you know? And it's hard to know who might stumble, so I usually only drink if my wife and I are out somewhere by ourselves.

    So, I agree with you - drinking is not a sin, drunkenness is.

    Keep up the good work!

    ReplyDelete
  13. Good topic, one that is often debated in my family. My grandfather is a retired pastor and even he has a glass of wine with dinner. However other family members are shocked to see me have some beers at a picnic. They think it is a sin and then they give me "The Look". But personally, I dont think it is a sin...maybe thats because I LIKE to have a drink every once in while?!? I dunno, but its certainly something to think about!

    ReplyDelete
  14. Back in Portland where I'm from, you cannot swing a hippie by the hair without hitting two or three brewpubs*. I have several favorites, and I always thought it would be awesome to hold a Bible study in one of them.

    First, you can study the Word and enjoy a refreshing hef** at the same time. Second, what an awesome witness for the non-Christians in the vicinity - "Those people are reading the Bible and drinking a beer, whoa, my mind is buh-blown***!!!"

    *Yeah I am totally writing footnotes on a blog post comment. Some may not know what a brewpub is. It's a pub that brews its own brand of delicious beer in the back room.

    **Hef = hefeweizen, an unfiltered wheat beer that happens to be the best in the whole world. I recommend Widmer brand if you can find it, and squirt a little lemon juice in it for double the awesome.

    ***Buh-blown = I hope I am the one who just invented this awesome onomotopaeia. I am instantly reminded of every 80's TV action show with slo-mo explosions.

    ReplyDelete
  15. I like myself a drink sometimes. Mike's Hard Lemonade, a glass of fruity wine, a beer, a mixed frozen girlie drink, an spiked eggnog of awesomeness during the holidays, Kahlua and coffee. The list is long. I suppose if that damns me to hell, then everything in the Bible about salvation being through our belief in Christ is a lie. People need to get their panty wads out of their butts and take off their judgment hats for a few hours. Seriously.

    Heidi Reed

    ReplyDelete
  16. I find this method to be pretty effective:
    I'll say something like, "So and so mentioned maybe going to the bar later on for [80s night, karaoke night, some other theme night], and I'm not sure if I'm going to go." If they respond by saying something like, "Oh my goodness! I can't believe so and so goes to the BAR!!! I could NEVER go to a BAR in good conscience!!! How sad for so and so that s/he feels that s/he has to drink in order to have a good time," then I know not to mention to them that I'll probably be at karaoke night too (practicing my Christian liberty in moderation). If they say, "Oh my goodness! I had no idea that so and so sang karaoke! Which bar? What time?" I know they're safe.

    (I feel like you must be a little disappointed. You were hoping to start a real conversation, but all you seem to have generated is a bunch of "I'll drink to that!" comments.)

    ReplyDelete
  17. For most churches in NZ its a non issue. In the church I pastor we go out for a drink after nearly every service.

    ReplyDelete
  18. you can't really make a legitmate case for a few drinks being sinful. though it's not my preference, i think you could make a fairly compelling case that pushing it to the point of being fairly tipsy is acceptable, though not beneficial. I think we tend to miss that sins aren't just a bunch of individually bad things we do, they all come from the same few things.
    i might tell a lie about someone, and on the surface that is my sin, but really i was being jealous of them so that was my sin, however, the true heart of that sin is that i wasn't loving my neighbor like i should. so i think what really makes drinking a sin is the motive, am i running from something? hiding something? am i liable to hurt someone from doing this? has it become an idol? is it drawing me away from God? i think those are the question we need to ask, and that goes for everything we could do, not just drinking.

    sorry if that seems rushed... cause it was haha, but hopefully it makes sense.

    -andrew m. from SC

    ReplyDelete
  19. I tell people that I am a "closet Anglican". That's sort of Episcopalian for some. Anyway. The point is this, WHO ever got sent back from heaven by all those dead Ray Boltz fans, to give us all a "Thankyou for giving to the Lord....and NOT drinking Captain Morgan"????

    I like the occasional wine, martini and tall cold Hurricane. Does it chip away at my salvation so that I can only enter the Pearly Gates and mow the lawn? No. Does it annoy my (No)fundementalist friends? No. Because I don't have any fundementalist friends cuz they ran out of bacardi mixer right when they stopped cutting their hair and dressing nice.

    Point? Jesus DID turn water in WINE. Not Hi-C fruit punch.

    ReplyDelete
  20. You mean I can't do pound cake while wearing a beer hat in church?

    ReplyDelete
  21. The quote currently displayed on my facebook page is this:

    It is lawful to use wine not only in cases of necessity, but also thereby to make us merry.

    And who originally said this? None other than John Calvin himself. A man after my own heart. :D

    ReplyDelete
  22. Jon, this issue is just one of many flavors of a general problem with the Church called "justincasion". Not to be confused with "justification" (remember "just as if I'd never sinned"?), justincasion ("just in case I ever sin") is quite the opposite. Its symptoms include blurred vision, inaccurate depth perception, paranoia, and an odd fascination with sidewalk chalk. To best learn how to identify a person (or organization) suffering from justincasion, let's look at an example. Say, alcohol consumption.

    Two people -- one with justification, one with justincasion -- read the same Bible. They both see the same texts prohibiting drunkenness, both read about Jesus turning water into wine, etc. Now, the person with justification recognizes the value of what these scriptures offer: the freedom to drink what he wants so long as he keeps his head, the freedom to celebrate (rather than stifle) important cultural gatherings such as weddings, protection from the consequences of bad decisions made with judgment impaired by alcohol, etc. To the justified person, the law exists to give freedom, not to restrict it.

    Enter the justincased guy. The minute he sees words like "not" or "never" in the text, his paranoia kicks in. He begins to sweat the definitions of words such as "drunk" and "wine" and ... "and". While still a little woozy from this sudden onset of Heavenly pressure and the threat of eternal damnation, he does the only thing he knows how to do -- he reaches for his sidewalk chalk. He eyeballs (as best as he can in this state) a "safe zone distance" from the forbidden thing, doubles the distance "just in case", and then draws a circle at that radius around this particular evil on the ground. That line is never, ever, to be crossed. All must remain outside the circle.

    Of course, the problem with said circles is that, once you've drawn one around each and every sin in the Book, you find there really isn't all that much of the Earth left not in one of those circles. Getting from one place to another requires carefully planning and often some quite complex acrobatics to avoid falling inside one of the circles and (of course) certain death. The law becomes a burden, causing these people to spend all their time looking down at the ground and the circles instead of looking up to their God.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Addiction scares me. I grew up surrounded by people who had substances they could not function without(legal and otherwise). A drink or two a few times a week is no biggy for me. Not being able to relax until you've had a few beers is bit more scary. After having children I started drinking coffee daily and I am so cranky if I don't have caffeine in the morning now. I know it is something I will have to give up in the future as I hate being held captive by those delicious beans, but not yet. My 3 year old tells me daily that she is going to drink coffee when she is older. She also getting a tattoo thanks to seeing my pretty one.

    As for the friends and drinking. My husnad offers people a beer the first time we have them over. If they are offended we don't have to put anymore time into that relationship.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Maybe next time you want to instigate something, don't actually come out and say that's what you're doing. Because all you seem to have right now is a little lovefest!

    Anyway, yeah, I don't have a problem with drinking. Don't be a lush, and don't drink and drive, duh. But hanging out with friends and a bottle of wine is a lovely thing.

    ReplyDelete
  25. (looking at picture)
    Mmmm...black & tan.

    Kristen & Dave--your comment about Southern Baptists reminds me of an old joke:

    You're going fishing with your Southern Baptist friend. How do you keep him from drinking all your beer?

    Invite another Southern Baptist along.

    Oh--and to answer the question, three words: Water into wine.

    ReplyDelete
  26. When we became Christians, we traded a life devoted to self to a life devoted to Christ. So we must constantly examine our thoughts and actions to see if they are pleasing to God. Here are some questions I think we need to ask ourselves about any debatable topic like this:

    Is this pleasing to God (or pleasing to me)?

    Am I causing a brother to stumble/sin?

    Is this action permitted (or forbidden) by scripture?

    Even if this action is not specifically forbidden by scripture, will it lead to sinful actions?

    Even if this action is not specifically forbidden by scripture, would I be willing to sacrifice it (for the benefit of the body, because the Holy Spirit convicted me, etc.)

    The point is, what is your motive?

    ReplyDelete
  27. I'm one of those people who don't drink, but has no problem with people who do. It seems to come down to how people interpret some passages of Scripture. As for the ones you mentioned, I gather that many were told what it said and did not read it for themselves. I find it to be straightforward condemning the abuse of alcohol while leaving us free to enjoy it in moderation. I also love to point out that Jesus did turn the water into wine at the wedding, causing the host to comment on saving the best wine for last.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I am slightly disappointed with myself that my first comment on this fabulous site is going to be serious instead of sarcastic. Maybe this preface alone will save me?

    We so, so often forget that the Bible was written TO a particular people group AT a particular time. Paul had a particular purpose in his letter to the Corinthians, and it's clear that he was fighting against the rampant licentiousness in the church, a lot of which came from the fact the Corinthians had formerly been pagans.

    Of course we can draw general principles from what Paul says to them, and Beth very succintly summed it up with drinking. But let's not forget about context when we're reading, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  29. "This is not about getting hammered and pulling a 'Noah.'"

    That just made my day. We got so much mileage out of "Drunk and Naked Noah" in my Disciple class last year. It's one of those bible stories we surprisingly don't hear about in Sunday School as kids (hmmm... material for a good post?).

    ReplyDelete
  30. Not a sin. Sad that there's a debate about it.

    A friend of mine was candidating to be the pastor of a church and was one of the final 2 or 3 choices. But then they asked him if he had ever had a drink of alcohol. Because at that church, in order to be in leadership you not only had to abstain from alcohol in the present (a debateable idea at best in itself), but you could NEVER have had a drink of alcohol in your life. He was disqualified, and one of the elders asked him what he thought of their rule - and told him to be honest. My friend said "It's your church and if this helps you arrive at a suitable candidate for you, then I'm not going to argue with you about it. But I think it's odd that you have a rule that would disqualify Jesus and the apostles from leadership in your church."

    C.S. Lewis put it well (as usual):

    "I do however strongly object to the tyrannic and unscriptural insolence of anything that calls itself a Church and makes teetotalism a condition of membership. Apart from the more serious objection (that Our Lord Himself turned water into wine and made wine the medium of the only rite He imposed on all His followers), it is so provincial (what I believe you people call 'small town'). Don't they realize that Christianity arose in the Mediterranean world where, then as now, wine was as much a part of the normal diet as bread?"

    And elsewhere:

    "Temperance is, unfortunately, one of those words that has changed its meaning. It now usually means teetotalism... [In the past,] temperance referred not specially to drink, but to all pleasures; and it meant not abstaining, but going the right length and no further. It is a mistake to think that Christians ought all to be teetotalers; Mohammedanism [Islam], not Christianity, is the teetotal religion.

    "Of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian, or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much, or because he is with people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself. But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for a good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying. One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons--marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who use them, he has taken the wrong turning."

    ReplyDelete
  31. When I first came back to God four years ago after about 15 years away, I was terrified of the idea of drinking. I partied pretty seriously for five of those 15 years, and I drank a lot, so I was scared to "get back into my old ways." I think what helped me get over the fear was the belief that, as long as that glass of wine (or beer, if you prefer) does not make me act in a way that is unbecoming as a Christian, then I should be fine. When I drank a lot in my partying days, I would smoke, swear, kiss boys, etc.--all things that don't present a good image as a follower of our Lord. Now, when I have a drink, I cook a nice dinner with my husband of 12 years, and we sit on our patio enjoying the sunset. I don't believe that that drink takes me away from God the way my "old ways" did.

    ReplyDelete
  32. I used to live out on the countryside here in Norway when I was a kid and we heard terryfying stories about the christians in our capital that sometimes after church Saturday night went out and ... I barely dare to write it ... had a beer ...

    Now I've been living urbanly (or maybe urbanish is a better word, our cities are quite small after all) for the last 15 years and can enjoy a glass of wine or a beer both on Saturdays and other days. And I'm still christian :) I think the general opinion is that it's not a sin (anymore). Even back in my forest.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Quick prediction: at least 90% of the comments will say drinking is okay. What we tend to do when determining the wrongness of something is to equate it to something else.

    So, is one bite of food wrong? Is one lie wrong? Is one look at a pornographic magazine wrong? Is one murder wrong? Is one puff on a cigarette wrong? Is one drink wrong? Then you have to decide which of those are relevant.

    But is it absolutely wrong? I don't know. But it's wrong for many people.

    It's wrong for me, because as an ordained minister, my fellowship says it is.

    It's wrong for my kids, because they're underage.

    It's wrong for anyone who is driving.

    It's wrong for pilots who are on duty.

    It's wrong for any surgeon who might be working on parts of my body.

    It's probably wrong for anyone who is battling alcoholism.

    More?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Jon, I really appreciate the way you mix sarcasm and seriousness in your posts. You have a good heart. And a fantastic sense of humor. This is my favorite website, hands down.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Whenever someone brings up the tired argument, 'But Jesus made new wine, it was like grape juice,' I refer to Luke 5:37-39:

    And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, "The old is better."

    Straight from Jesus. Also, in Ecclesiastes 9:7 says:

    Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.

    I find that many people are opposed to things like money and drinking because they can't handle it themselves. So instead of working on that, they decide that its a sin altogether and condemn those who are able to enjoy it.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "The goal of the site is to instigate, to give you a hammer carved of pure sarcasm with which you can smash up old thoughts, ideas you accidentally inherited from your parents and all the other silly stuff we deal with as Christians."

    This is the best mission statement for a blog I have ever read!

    I'm totally fine with the drinking thing, but I can get irritated with the way that some people flaunt their freedom and their uber coolness because they have been liberated to drink.

    We are missionaries to Mexico, where drinking is absolutely, unequivocally looked at as sin (culture issue)- and so we choose not to drink at all. We come home on furlough (like we are right now), and still don't drink, and we get this vibe from people like we just aren't cool any more now that we don't imbibe.

    The drinking Christians need to be careful not to judge the non-drinking ones... 'nuff said.

    ReplyDelete
  37. a friend of mine once said, "its not until you start drinking by yourself that you have a problem."

    and i think thats really good advice. if you are drinking to celebrate or to fellowship with people then there clearly isnt a problem. when you start drinking by yourself for no reason or to "feel better", then, i would say, you have something i like to call "a little bit of a drinking problem."

    oh and stan.... paulaner is the best hef. and with a little lemon juice... ummm yumm.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I know this is all in jest, but I've got to say I'm not a fan of all the voodoo "does he drink" games going on. In my experience all it leads to is a lot of complicated gossip and mistrust.

    If drinking matters to you, then it's better to just have it out in the open, even if you have to turn the other cheek because you just got punched in the face.

    ReplyDelete
  39. My position on alcohol? It's just a beverage. A very expensive beverage. I enjoy the taste of most red wines and fruity, "girly" drinks, but I don't care enough about it to spend that much money on it. I also have a number of alcoholics in my family line, and I really don't feel like finding out whether or not I would become addicted. Everything in my life is not worth throwing away just for a beverage.

    So I don't drink. But if we're ever in a restaurant together, feel free to order a beer or a glass of wine. I'll stick to my soda (or water - yes, I'm that cheap sometimes!) with free refills. But I won't condemn or pass judgment on you.

    [And yes, the denomination with with I am credentialed does have a "no drinking" policy. But I don't believe in hiding behind my church and using that as my reason for not drinking. I believe a person needs to have a stronger argument than that!]

    And I watch Family Guy. Stewie is hysterical!

    ReplyDelete
  40. As for church leadership, I believe that leaders should hold themselves to a higher standard. As servants of the church, pastors/elders are called on at all times, day or night. Will drinking interfere with those duties to the body? Having to drive to meet someone in need, meeting with someone who needs advice. If drinking affects those obligations to the church, it should not be done. That's the reason why my dad, a pastor, made the decision to stop drinking in seminary 30 years ago.

    That being said, I think it's a personal choice to be made by individuals.

    To address others' posts, I think that sometimes Christians don't drink in public using the excuse that it will make others stumble when really, they just don't want people to see them because they grew up around people who thought it was wrong and they still haven't been able to fully make the decision to drink their own and live with it, regardless of the consequences of others seeing them. I understand that you shouldn't go drinking with former alcoholics or maybe abstain if someone has a strong opposition to it, but will those people really be in a bar or care if you're at a restaurant or something with someone else? There's a differences between not drinking around certain people and hiding it from them.

    ReplyDelete
  41. what's my motive? i really like beer and good red wine! some people start out their day with 3 cokes. i like to finish mine with a yummy pint of guinness.

    to quote that wise sage Ben Franklin:
    "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

    ReplyDelete
  42. Several Christians I know drink occasionally. They are great people who I love a lot.
    Most of the comments on this post are saying that drinking is ok, drunkeness is wrong.
    But what if you only get almost drunk?
    And what if you get almost drunk every night?
    When does it pass from being ok to being a sin?
    I don't believe that Christians should never drink. But I am wondering...who decides what the crosses the line from
    "just drinking" to "drunk and sinning"?

    ReplyDelete
  43. I wrote about this a couple of years ago on my blog. It's a Q&A on Christians and Alcohol that sums up how I feel.

    Thoughts on Christianity and Alcohol

    ReplyDelete
  44. First, we know that getting drunk is a no no. I don't personally have a drink on a regular basis but I have friends that do. Do I think it is wrong? No. But we should check our motives. Is it to "unwind"? That could lead to an addiction. Or it maybe because you just like the taste of that perfect margarita :) I work in the ministry (in the South) and whether right or wrong, if someone sees me with alcohol in my hand, they would stumble. So when I do occasionally have a glass of wine, I have one around friends (in their homes) who won't judge (call me a closet one drink girl). I want to have that perfect margarita when we go out but I'm reminded of this verse 1 Corinthians 8:9 "Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak." Is it fair to me? No way. But it is what it is. So when we go out I'm stuck watching my friends enjoy the perfect margarita. Eh, at least they let me sneak in a few sips :)

    ReplyDelete
  45. I'm a regular reader of this blog, but I'm posting anonymously because, although it's unlikely, my parents could read this blog someday.

    I was raised in a pastor's home, like you, Jon. We were taught not to drink. My parents reason was simply because they wanted us to be above reproach. My mother always used to say that we were "guilty by association." If we ran with the crowd that got drunk and went to parties, then our church would assume that we got drunk and went to parties. I've been surprised as an adult to hear my mother say that she doesn't have a problem with someone who has an occasional drink, but it is just not something she or my father can do because of his position as pastor.

    As a teen, I never had a desire to drink. More than that, I didn't desire to run with the crowd that got drunk and went to parties. They were immature and irresponsible, and I generally preferred the company of adults to my peers, anyway.

    As an adult, I have had friends than drink, family that drinks, and even dated guys that drink. I don't condone drunkenness. I don't think any of us do, but I have learned that contrary to what I believed about myself, I do not have an addictive personality. I always believed that if I ever started drinking, I would become a drunk. I tried a drink or two of wine, and hated it. I tried rum, and loved it. I married an open-minded man, and he introduced me to the world of mixed drinks. Martinis, to be precise. (Yes, I love James Bond.) So, now I have an occasional martini, or rum and coke, or Mike's Hard Berry. I have discovered that I don't like drinking because of the way it makes me feel. I like to drink because sometimes the beverage options at restaurants are boring. Tea. Water. Soda. That's all. Sometimes lemonade. A mixed drink shakes things up a little. I know I could get a virgin drink, but seriously, can you imagine a virgin martini? Yeah. Exactly.

    My husband and I have talked about this subject a lot. Neither of us started drinking until we were adults, well past the legal drinking age. We feel that has given us a maturity about drinking that we might not have had if we had started when we were teenagers. It is the same idea of countries that don't have a legal drinking age: I once knew a person from a European country that doesn't have a legal drinking age. We were talking about it one day and I said that I bet they had a real drinking problem there because of that. He responded that no, they didn't. In fact, he said that they had a very small percentage of alcoholics. He said that because they were never forbidden to drink, and kids didn't have to sneak around in order to drink, they just didn't have a problem with alcohol. Because it wasn't taboo, as it is in the states, no one felt that rebellious excitement to do it.

    I do still have to hide the fact that I drink from some people in my life. I think that is the thing that bothers me so much. I don't feel it is wrong, but have friends and family that think it is wrong. So, I feel guilty, like I'm subconsciously disappointing my parents every time I take a sip of my appletini.

    ReplyDelete
  46. All I did was read the title of this post. I am concerned for your afterlife. Don't you know "beer" is Satan water? Invest in shorts and wife-beaters because it's gonna be hot in the next life for you if you're not careful. And if you start playing cards, that's it!

    I went to Bible college. I know these things.


    (Just a friendly warning from the only state in the union that makes true Burbon. That stuff is like swallowing a bottle rocket. Or so I've heard.)

    ReplyDelete
  47. What a great hot-button issue to bring up! I like that SCL has become a forum for discussion (as opposed to slap down argument) over some of these issues.

    My husband and I have a mixed background on drinking issues. My parents were tea-totalers and his parents (and siblings) were casual drinkers. Which generally works out to we'll have a drink or 2 if we're at a party, but usually at home we forget about the concept (especially after having and nursing 3 babies where I *couldn't* drink, and my husband went along with that so's to not tempt me).

    I see nothing wrong with Christians drinking alcohol responsibly, as long as they are mindful to not be making a weaker brother or sister stumble. I would never drink in front of any friend who'd ever had alcoholism issues. And Christians should not break the law - no drinking and driving, no underage drinking or providing to minors. But I am perfectly okay with Christians drinking in a responsible manner.

    I really think that if God meant that Jesus turned water into grape juice, then the Bible would have said that. No, Jesus turned water into WINE - a whole lot of it, the very best the steward had ever tasted.

    And yes, I've had some interesting moments playing the subtle-find-out-if-you-drink-too game.

    ReplyDelete
  48. As a pastor's wife, this seems to come up if we are interviewing with a new church. I make it VERY clear right up front - they never have to worry about me consuming alcohol ...


    ... it's a bad mix with my antidepressant!

    ReplyDelete
  49. "As for the friends and drinking. My husnad offers people a beer the first time we have them over. If they are offended we don't have to put anymore time into that relationship."

    Alright, mikeandrachel, I think it is ridiculous to say that because someone is not interested in drinking, you won't persue relationship with them. That is pretty shallow, seriously.
    You don't know what is going on in their lives! Now you're setting up little walls between yourself and other Christians because they don't drink! Jesus didn't look at us and say "Wow, he doesn't share my interests. I am so glad I don't have to put any more time into THAT relationship. What a relief!"

    ReplyDelete
  50. I'm all for freedom in this, I Corinthians 10:31 isn't just about eating afterall. I've had to learn to exercise some restraint though when it comes to debating the topic. Having a drink is my freedom, but it's not my hill to die on or my right to flaunt. I get frustrated when Christians become zealous about drinking or think other Christians are stupid for believing differently; I Corinthians 8:7-8 should be instructive on this. A believer with weaker faith will sin in violating his/her conscience.

    I don't think the 'weaker brother' argument holds up against stubborn fundamentalists - Jesus never tried to placate Pharisees. He did however sacrifice all kinds of freedom in love.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Jon and SCL Fans,
    I'm a PK. (if you don't know what that is then there is no hope for you) (Jon have you done a post on Christian acronyms yet?)
    Anyway,
    My parents were very conservative on a lot of issues like drinking and music and things of that nature. In our house it was basically like, "if you drink then you go to hell." Ok maybe not that bad but you get the picture.
    In high school I played a lot of sports and got into the partying scene a bit, and had a struggle with alchohol. Even after I got saved some of the jobs or friends I had brough me back into that lifestyle, and I hated it.

    It's not a sin to drink. I chose not to. On my 21st bday, some old friends were like, "dude lets go get you drunk" and I refused, then they wanted just to buy me a drink, and I still decided not to.
    It was a problem for me in my past. I abused it, and I'd rather stay above reproach now then walk on the slippery slope.

    I know if I don't drink I can't get drunk. We are also called not to be a stumbling block for our brothers.

    And lastly,
    I think we ask the wrong questions as Christians. "Can I drink?" "Is drinking a sin?"
    I offer this one,
    "What is something positive that comes from drinking alcohol?"

    sorry for the long post, i'd like to go more in depth.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I am guessing that this is counter-intuative to many, but I think a lot of international Christians don't have this debate because it's agreed that they DON'T drink.

    I live in Ukraine and we have actually had some serious issues with American and British Christians that come to our camp and decide to buy a beer down at the corner store... just to try a local brew. The local staff here feels a little betrayed that they would come here, representing our organization and then drink. I think there are a few reasons for this.

    First, all of my close acquaintances here go to one of the 2 charismatic churches in town which are pretty clear on the subject. I've heard the Baptists and Methodists are even more strict.

    Second, a majority of the staff here are recovering alcoholics; myself included. It just isn't an option for us.

    Third, this country has an astronomical rate of alcohol abuse. To the point that the life expectancy for men in our city is only about 55; mostly lifestyle-related. To forego on alcohol is to differentiate themselves from arguably the most destructive aspect of their culture.

    Though I have spent much less time in Latin America (Dominican Rep, Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador), those Christians that I have worked with have a similar view. That is just an impression from the places I have been and I realize it isn't all-encompassing.

    ReplyDelete
  53. leave your grape juice out over night.... it tastes a little funktified in the morning. In Biblical times, refrigeration techniques were "fantastic" you think Jesus may have had funktified juice a few times in his lifetime? hard to believe he didn't

    ReplyDelete
  54. "And then it said, 'The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine.' Which was news to me."

    That's news to me, too. Since that my dad has told me several times during the couse of some illnesses I have been going through lately this verse:

    1 Timothy 5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

    I mean, if my dad and I are interpreting this verse wrong, then we need to be corrected.

    I have no problem with drinking WITHOUT getting drunk. However, I haven't really found a drink with a taste I can tolerate. I suspect the vervent prayers of my mother and possibly my late grandmother has something to do with this since her family has suffered with alcohol abuse and are/were committed to breaking the generational curse.

    ReplyDelete
  55. aaron: I agree with you about drinking for the feeling it gives you, and especially when you are drinking alone, there's a greater chance that's what you are doing. However I can tell you from personal experience that there are a few people out there who drink alone and it's still just for the taste. Sometimes a beer or a hard cider just really tastes good with a meal.

    Hmmm, (writing on a sticky note) Capital P, a, u... :)

    ReplyDelete
  56. Hi Annie - I think mikeandrachel were saying that if somebody is "offended" when offered a beer then they don't feel like it's worth it to put time into a relationship. "Offended" is different than somebody who politely declines but doesn't care what the rest of the group does. It seems that the spirit of mikeandrachel's comment was that if somebody is offended by being offered beer then that's a pretty good indication that they're probably not mikeandrachel's people. I don't think that's shallow or divisive. Obviously I don't know mikeandrachel but I doubt they'd kick the person out of their house. They just probably wouldn't go out of their way to invite them over again.

    ReplyDelete
  57. I am fine with anyone (of age) drinking in moderation, if they enjoy it and can handle it. I myself appreciate the delicious goodness of a glass of red wine or a pint of Guiness.

    But I don't drink anymore. Not because I reject the idea of drinking alcohol. But because my wife is an alcoholic. We used to share a bottle of wine once in a while early in our marriage. Things never got too out of control - we probably both got too tipsy once in a while - but I don't even think that is an inherently sinful thing for a husband and wife to do together (occasionally... as long as they don't put the kids at risk, etc.). But then we went through a bad period and were separated, and she began to drink heavily. We are back together now and she is sober for 2+ years. She has asked me not to drink, and I have gladly obliged her. Which is weird for me, because usually I have a very strong knee-jerk reaction to any situation where someone tells me what not to do.

    I guess my situation, and my stance on the matter, fits nicely with the terrific C.S. Lewis quote someone cited earlier:

    "Of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian (that's me), or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much (that's not me), or because he is with (married to) people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself (yes, that's me). But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for a good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying."

    ReplyDelete
  58. Jesus turned the water to wine at a party before. Why would one drink be an issue? I don't see one!

    Tricia :)

    ReplyDelete
  59. to matty:
    I think it all comes down to culture and we have to be sensitive to other cultures even if it means denying ourselves. I spent 2 weeks in Uganda this summer where it is culturally unacceptable for Christians to drink... so we didn't. But it was made clear to us, so if there is a problem with foreign groups coming in and causing offence by doing this, then maybe there could be some better communication about what is expected from them while they're staying in your country.

    ReplyDelete
  60. I completely agree that it's drunkenness and being out of control that is sinful. Before I turned 21 God and I had a lot of chats about what my convictions were going to be — and three years later white wine is a staple in my fridge.

    I have had some of the best opportunities to spend time with my friends who Jesus loves, loving them too, after work at our favorite bar in college, sharing a drink and conversation ... even conversation about God (gasp).

    ReplyDelete
  61. I agree with most opinions on these comments however I have noticed a pattern in many of these commments: the phrase "I don't have a problem with..."/ "I think it's fine...." ie. a lot of I focused statements. Or sometimes even a "Well so and so (say a respected pastor or an admired friend) does this so it must be fine..."

    God holds us accountable to his word not to other people's actions. He holds us accountable for our actions according to his word, rather than what we felt was OK because we felt it was OK.

    We are called to deny ourselves. We are urged not to cause others to stumble by our actions. Everything we do is supposed to bring him glory/done for his glory.

    So I guess I just caution people that we should also be aware of our motivation for doing something, whether it falls in the "permissible" ring or not.

    ReplyDelete
  62. probably the best post you have done on SCL yet...

    ReplyDelete
  63. Fried chicken is the beer of choice for Southern Baptists.

    Is drinking really the issue or loving people more than self. I live in a subculture where drinking is something non-Christians do. If i love others more than myself, I will restrict my freedom. In other subcultures where it isn't a big deal, then moderation is certainly Scriptural instruction.

    But, I can also understand the concern of those who see that there isn't much difference between folks act in church and out. Really, there is a lot of selfcenteredness and immaturity in a lot of churches. For example, the divorce rate is stastically the same for those in church as out. Drug use and cohabitation are also very high. Some people try to be holy by creating rules. It's easier than to give up control of your heart, so God can change you into someone holy. Rules religion keeps you in control of your life. That isn't Christianity, btw. Christianity is giving Jesus control of your life - and that more than drinking, tattoos, or Family Guy is the real issue.

    ReplyDelete
  64. HAH! I've spent a lifetime with a father who preached hellfire & brimstone against alcohol during the first years of his ministry. Then, after 12 years in ministry - he found Jesus. Yah ... don't ask. Liberal seminaries. But, what happened to him was not a change in his belief about alcohol, but about its importance. He began preaching about the power of Jesus to change lives, not against something.

    This is another of those hot-button issues that Christians can easily line up for or against ('and' I have a huge list of them). We spend so much time beating people up for drinking, that we forget the most important thing is to tell them about a Savior. It's awfully easy for us to spend a lot of time worrying over transient details and all the sins so prevalent in society.

    Wow ... I'm going to walk into it here: But, all the debate that rages tells me that we, as Christians are much more worried about how Brother Jon is living his life than we are about how our next door neighbor is getting to heaven.

    And just for full disclosure. I will NOT have a beer with you at dinner. I hate the stuff. Can I please order a chocolate martini?

    ReplyDelete
  65. mmmmmm
    black and tan

    another question on the sly. "do you like black and tan?" if they say "no i like blue" you know not to bring over the guinness...

    God is good
    jpu

    ReplyDelete
  66. At youth camp my senior year in high school, my youth pastor took all of us seniors off campus to eat at Chili's for lunch one day (it was a BIG DEAL to eat lunch off campus). My friend and I were flipping through one of those little booklets that they put in the middle of the table and came across the "Alcoholic Beverage" section. We joked about asking one of the adults to order us margaritas. TOTAL JOKING, please note. The rest of lunch consisted of our youth pastor, who was sitting across from us, lecturing all of us on why drinking as a Christian is bad and how it ruins your witness, etc, etc. His argument was "Some people say that it's a great witness to go into a bar with your non-Christian buddies and drink a beer right along with them. What I say, however, is how much of a witness is it if you go in there and DON'T drink a beer??"

    I know someone mentioned it in one of the earlier comments, but I think that would just make the situation slightly uncomfortable to have a group of friends all sitting around enjoying a beer and then there's the Christian friend not drinking...possibly making the friends feel slightly judged for their choice to drink. I do agree with my pastor, though, in that we do need to be careful if we are going to drink. We need to realize that some people aren't okay with it, and some non-Christians may make some rash judgments if they were to just see us in a bar and not know how many drinks we've had, etc. I also think we need to be very self-aware and know where our limit is, as well as take into account our family history. I have a family that has struggled with substance abuse. I feel that the Lord has blessed me by granting me total freedom from that, as I am already leading a different life than my family members did at this age. However, I'm totally aware that when I turn 21 and I start drinking, I could very well face some substance abuse issues and have to give up the drinking.

    All this to say, I don't think drinking is a sin. It's a huge deal in the South and it drives me crazy, especially since my own father is one of the opponents to drinking (can't wait for my conversation with him about all this...). I think we need to focus more on bigger issues and worry more about living and loving out loud instead of nagging each other about such little things. Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding, and I believe it was for everyone's enjoyment. It's not like He'd be like "Hey! Look what I can do! ....But don't you dare touch that wine."

    ReplyDelete
  67. Growing up in a conservative church background, I have found drinking as one of the most hidden "sins" in the Christian world. I think a lot of people do it but wouldn't admit it. Its interesting to go to a church without the old school Christians and see how no one even knows its supposed to be "wrong". I've heard every verse in the Bible twisted to make alcohol wrong, like wine really was just grape juice which is such a major stretch. Its like they want it to be wrong no matter what!

    ReplyDelete
  68. There have been some really great comments so far - I especially liked Andrew's and Karl's (those words of C.S. Lewis altered my opinion when I first read them years ago).

    I'm a Christian who chooses not to drink. I have my own reasons, but the two main ones are that my father is an alcoholic and he allowed it to totally screw up his life (and the early part of mine). I know that not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic, but these are MY personal reasons. The other is that I simply don't like the taste of alcohol. I drink water not because of the way it makes me feel, but because I am thirsty. I drink Dr Pepper not because it relaxes me but because I love the way it tastes! I'm not going to drink alcohol for a feeling it gives me if I hate the taste of it.

    Jan, you touched on this, but I honestly feel like many times I am judged for being the person who doesn't drink way more often than I actually judge those who do it. I don't feel guilty at all for my reasons for abstaining. To me they are great reasons. I also don't think a Christian who has a drink or walks into a bar is condemned! Of course not!

    It is a pet peeve of mine when people (especially Christians) are passionate about the fact that they drink. Frankly, I'm kind of tired of it being shoved in my face just because I choose not to participate.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I hope we meet one day, and I can subtly find out if you like anything other than Sam Adams! Oh wait...I'll just ask...

    I'm betting more than half of our Church members drink, they just won't admit it. I could be a horrible father and husband, never spend any time with God, and still "qualify" as a deacon, but if they found out a beer crossed my lips, I'd probably be asked to leave our church. That's sad.

    ReplyDelete
  70. 8. The Top Cupboard

    This is usually the cabinet area above the refrigerator or the stove, the one that most people can't quite reach or see into. Many bottles of Captain and Jose have been located by simply faking looking for a cup in the top cupboard. Fool proof. "Oh, I was just looking for a glass!" [To prevent a lie and going to hell, you should try to actually need a glass of water.]

    thanks 4 the laughs

    ReplyDelete
  71. I get the feeling this is mostly an American issue. Most of my friends, if not all, drink beer or wine or something occasionally. And we're all mostly Christian, too.

    Anyways, about "the move" - there are really 2 ways this works, not only by noticing the moving boxes, but also weather or not you or your buddies offer pizza and beer as thanks for helping pack/move!

    ReplyDelete
  72. I'm a Southern Baptist and live near the buckle of the Bible belt. Occassionally I'll have a social drink when I'm with other Christian adults, and in talking to my friends who do indulge, I can tell you they aren't worried at all about what God thinks when they drink, they're worried about what OTHER PEOPLE think when they drink. Why is it that some of us stress out over what other Christians think even if we know God is okay with it? Strange...

    ReplyDelete
  73. I sort of go with a variation on The Anything. It involves telepathy... it's pretty involved.

    When we have guests, I say something like, "Hey, can I get you something to drink? We have iced tea, water, soda, or...?"

    At this point, I send mental telepathy to my guest that says "We have beer and wine coolers in the garage fridge, but I don't want to just offer it to you since I don't know what you think about drinking."

    Generally, if the guest is uncomfortable with beer, they quickly say "Iced tea, thanks".

    If the guest is ALSO trying to figure out whether WE like beer, they usually receive the telepathy, and say something back like "Well, gee, uh, that all sounds good, I just can't decide... you don't need to worry about me, I'll just get it myself. Maybe I can just look in your fridge?".

    At this point, I am free to say "Sure, it's right here, or if there's not anything you want here in the kitchen, there's some other stuff out in the garage."

    Additionally telepathy is sent here that says "THE BEER IS IN THE GARAGE!!!"

    It's pretty involved... but anytime I get to use telepathy, I figure it's a good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  74. My parents don't drink at all, and growing up, alcohol (even for cooking) was never, ever in our house. I can remember being shocked when we went to someone's house after church and they offered my parents a beer. I'm sure my parents declined gracefully, but I, being about 8 or 9 years old, was shocked to see that Christians sometimes drank.

    As a teen, my mom and I had discussions about it, and she told me that her philosophy on it was that our lives are supposed to be governed by self-control and living deliberately under the control of the Holy Spirit. If the point of drinking is to lose control (whether that's extreme, to the point of drunkenness, or mild, with the idea of "mellowing out" after a long day), then what's the point? It may not do "harm," but it's not being beneficial.

    As an adult, of course, I've had to come to my own conclusions about it, and I'm somewhere past where my parents drew their line, but not to an extreme. I have an occasional drink with dinner if I'm at someone's house and wine is served, or if I'm out at a restaurant. I very, very rarely have alcohol in my own refrigerator. If I do drink, it's always with a meal, and it's always with other people.

    There's something about wine in particular, though, that seems to lend itself to celebration. I grew up in a church that uses grape juice in communion, but I like the concept of wine, because of the time that it takes to become what it is, and the idea that it's like our sanctification--that we are in the process of becoming more like Christ.

    I like the idea that wine-tasting is an art (one which I don't have much knowledge in), and that it requires a more sophisticated palate than some.

    Also, my boyfriend is a choir director, and last Christmas, one of his choir members gave us a bottle of wine from his family's vineyard in Australia. The tradition in their family is that the first bottle of wine given from this particular vineyard is to be saved for the birth of the first child, so even though that's a few years away for us, we already have the bottle of wine that we're saving for it.

    However, we won't have alcohol at our wedding, partly out of respect for my parents' view, and partly because we want people's experience of the worship and celebration of the day to be unhindered by any kind of substance--which is why we're also not having coffee, black tea, or any caffeinated drinks.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Jon,

    I think that unibrow is sexy. Wanna make purple? Sorry, that's just the booze talking.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Matty

    I've actually heard the exact opposite from friends that have traveled to Western Europe and Latin American countries. Where drinking is very much a culturally accepted activity.


    However, that doesn't excuse the people who come to your camp from respecting your camps wishes. Especially if you clearly communicate what you expect to them.




    I'm actually working for a christian summer camp in the bible belt, and we are actually under contractual obligation not to drink (as well as smoke, get new tattoos, piercings etc). The reasons for which are solid and whether or not you think it's ok to drink in moderation (I do) as long as you work for them you obey the guidelines and principals set down by them.

    ReplyDelete
  77. what's the difference between "fermented grape juice" and "intoxicating wine"? I've made wine. Once your grape juice has fermented, it's wine.

    I suppose "fermented grape juice" is very weak wine or something - which also doesn't make sense, but never mind.

    Most of my friends and I are okay with a drink or two. One guy tends to look at us askance, but he's getting over it. (He had bad experiences in his christian college and it took us a while to convince him that we won't start acting the same way.)

    What gets me is that most of the adults in our congregation are just fine with wine, view beer with suspicion, and would assume that something is seriously wrong if they ever saw the bottle of (extremely nice) Scotch in my closet. What's up with that?

    ReplyDelete
  78. I live in the Bible belt and my denomination (the Missionary Church - you've probably never heard of it) is huge against drinking. I have a father and brother who are licensed, ordained pastors and they would drop dead if they read what I am about to write. There is nothing wrong with drinking. My husband and I don't drink very often because we just don't like the taste. We drink the fruity chick drinks on vacation because we think they taste better on the beach or a cruise ship. I wish the people in my area would get their heads out of their rearends and realize that alcohol is not the problem. Drunkeness is, and having a father-in-law who is an alcoholic, I see firsthand that it is a big problem. However, our denomination's reasoning is that alcohol can lead to a huge problem, so we should avoid it. Well, so can sex or food. Any good thing can become a bad thing with misuse. So should we quit having sex with our spouse because there is a slight chance we can pervert sex and develop an unhealthy sex addiction? Should we stop eating because we might overeat and become fat, which is unhealthy for our bodies which is God's temple? This is just absurd. I love your post. I wish every Christian in the world would read it and realize that arguing over drinking is Satan's way of taking our eyes off of what is really important - our hearts and relationship with Christ. And my own thoughts are that if Jesus were physically here on earth, I think he would have a beer while watching the Super Bowl.

    ReplyDelete
  79. What's wrong with gray? Call me post-modern but I don't think the issue is black and white. Even some of the drinkers are turning it to black and white with ideas like one drink is fine, more than that is a sin. I'm going out on a limb and saying TWO is fine by me. Maybe even three if I just had a huge pizza. But I totally understand how even one would be a problem for some people. There isn't an overarching law on how many beers a Christian can drink per hour with 8 oz of food in their stomach.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I'm 16... What a fascinating topic...

    I think I agree with all this, though it seems to me like there might be some animosity from drinkers towards the judgemental believers who look down on them for drinking. I would say that yes, this judgementalism is a problem for sure, but should we let that define or even negate our relationships? People with teetotaler views probably picked them up from their upbringing, and if we look down on them for their judgement, we're just returning their favor. It's not too much to ask to forego drinking when you're around certain people; the whole idea of not being a "stumbling block" is very applicable here. Our friendships with non-drinkers should showcase the freedom of Christ and potentially bring about a change of heart in them, but should certainly not hinge upon their personal prejudices. If Jesus had treated his disciple picking like that, you can be sure that Judas the rebel and Matthew the tax collector wouldn't have both made it...

    But since a ton of my friends drink underage and I don't, not wanting to break a very responsible law, I guess this is all somewhat irrelevant...

    ReplyDelete
  81. To use the argument that the wine was not the fermented type is just funny it is the same wine that Noah drank and we all know what happened. Also, I have never heard anyone go "wow" you save the best grape juice for last. Jesus turned the water into wine not grape juice. Anyways, my two cents or was it like three. Keep it up man you rock.

    ReplyDelete
  82. A friend told me that the process of making juice from grapes is much more intensive and costly as grapes naturally have a coating that causes them to ferment. He seems rather knowledgeable on these things so I trust him. Still, I wish I had had evidence on this.

    All this makes me think that it's better stewardship to make wine than grape juice.

    ReplyDelete
  83. My husband likes to say that people who disagree with any and all drinking believe that John the Baptist was holier than Jesus. John never drank alcohol, but Jesus not only drank, he turned water into wine!

    It's ridiculous that we want to be more legalistic than the Pharisees--for they certainly didn't seem to have a problem with drinking alcohol!

    ReplyDelete
  84. Jesus provided wine that was described as being better than the wine previously consumed... and I'm pretty sure he remained sinless his whole life.
    Just saying.

    ReplyDelete
  85. I love this topic for your blog! I'm actually surprised that more people aren't arguing in the comments over this.

    I've been a Christian my whole life, and I've had a few drinks and don't feel like it's a big deal. That said, I don't usually drink at all. I only like the drinks that taste like they don't have alcohol in them and if I'm going to consume something with that many empty calories, I'd rather have cheesecake. :)

    I don't have a problem with other Christians drinking occasionally but (like a few others have mentioned) I find it weird when they become all defensive about it. That makes me think they are feeling guilty. (Obviously not all Christians do this, but some do.)

    2 problems I do have with this issue:

    1. I had a conversation with my cousin, about drinking and Christianity, one time, and we both agreed that it's okay to have a beer or whatever. Then I found out that her husband also smokes pot (I don't know about you guys, but I'm not okay with that. Maybe an idea for another post? Christians and pot...) and I've seen him really really drunk many times. Seems like the whole conversation was just a defensive thing maybe.

    2. My ex husband could have had an hour long "discussion" with you about how you can drink and be a good Christian, but then he snuck home from strip clubs at two in the morning totally drunk... (and this isn't even why we are divorced now). So, I think it's okay to have a drink or two, but I'll be honest with you and say that, if I were going to date a guy (which I'm not looking to do right now anyway) and he said he drank occasionally, I would be extra careful to make sure occasionally didn't mean when he's around non-Christians and won't get caught being completely drunk. Maybe I'm just a little bit more leery because of my past and the baggage that I'm carrying around...

    Sorry my comment was so long. I didn't know I would have this much to say on the subject. Maybe I should write my own post about it. I'll have to unjumble my thoughts before I do that...

    ReplyDelete
  86. Phew -- what a subject!

    I've read through all 60 (so far!)comments and I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet....and I speak as an older person (but reading your blog, Jon,keeps me young :))-- there was a time when Christians 'abstained' from many things for one reason only -- the Church must not be like the world. The question was, "How will they know we are Christians, if we are just like the world?" And I think there's a lot to be said for that. There's a lot to be said against it too, because if that's the only reason we're abstaining -- because of outward appearances -- we are in big trouble! But still there is some truth to it.

    If we are 'out in the world' partying like the world, we can lose the value and reality of our 'testimony.' But sometimes, if we don't drink, we can also lose our testimony. When my neighbour, who doesn't know the Lord, invites me for dinner and asks me if I would like a glass of wine -- I feel to refuse makes me a 'holier than thou' person. So I accept(many in my church would have a HUGE problem with that). I have one glass, and make it last the whole evening, even though there may be many 'come on, drink up' comments. I feel this is a testimony to her, that I can enjoy her friendship, her dinner,and her wine and still talk to her about Jesus (believe it or not, many NON-Christians feel that Christians shouldn't drink -- interesting!).

    I believe it shows her, (she drinks very heavily) that I can still have good time without having to 'loosen up' with alcohol. And I don't sit in judgment of her. She has had a very unhappy life -- and if I had not yet found Jesus and had faced even some of what she has, I would probably be an alcoholic myself. I just long for the day when her eyes are fully opened to all the healing and new life that Jesus can offer her.

    And, by the way, I am horrified that Christians would end a friendship over the issue of alcohol. What would Jesus do?

    ReplyDelete
  87. Jon, this is your second post this week that has directly hit on a bunch of stuff I've been thinking about.

    Alcohol is a weird subject for me. I have Christian friends over 21 who drink, some who don't. I have non-Christian friends who drink, and some who don't.

    I just turned 20, so right now, my reason for not drinking is just that it's illegal. That whole tricky "respect authority" thing.

    But I also don't drink right now because it's a debate going on in my head, in my heart. Because I already feel God convicting me and telling me that it may need to be something I avoid. Alcoholism runs in my family (along with other addictions), and even though I've never drank (except for a sip of my mom's wine here and there)...I can still feel the temptation. It's like I feel the problem starting in my before I've ever entered the situation. And that scares me.

    Like everyone else said...it's all about the heart.

    ReplyDelete
  88. Great debate Jon, thanks for bringing it up.
    First of all, the Bible does not state consuming alcohol (without getting drunk) as a sin.
    But I think that there are some arguments to consider when deciding to drink. Mark Driscoll, in his book, Reformission, argued in favor of drinking. I disagree with his approach though. Mainly it deals with the causing others to stumble issue found in I Corinthians. If I am a Pastor, and I tell my congregation how we should enjoy drinking, how will I avoid causing someone to stumble into drunkenness? People responding to this post have said that they do not think that they could control themselves in drinking just one drink. Of course, there are people out there who cannot control themselves. Also, 10% of people who touch a drink, become alcoholics. If a Pastor of a church tells his congregation it is ok, inevitably, at some point there will be someone in his congregation who falls into sin (drunkenness) as a result of not being able to control himself.
    Another argument for me would be cost. (I am cheap, I drink water at every restaurant). But what about the cost of alcohol? Could not that money be used for something more profitable spiritually than alcohol? (For me here, alcohol is not the issue of this point, it is everything excessive that we buy). Ultimately, all that we have is God's. You are just His accountant and manager for His money. How are you going to spend it?
    I would never judge someone having a drink as being a sinner for that, but I think that Proverbs has a point when it says that drinking is for the unwise. (Proverbs 20:1)
    For the reasons above and that it is against my companies' policy, I do not drink. But hey, the choice is up to you.

    ReplyDelete
  89. I love number five. I’ve done this several times. You just have to be careful. Because most of the time they will throw it back at you and say, “Oh bring anything you want to drink.” It’s like a couple of Jr. Highers trying to figure out if the other one likes them. If I get the anything response back, I ask at that point if an adult beverage would be ok. It’s a little risky, but still better than showing up with a six-pack to your their daughter’s 5-year-old birthday party.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I don't think moderate drinking is a sin, but I had to give up my wine coolers when my pre-teen boys became too interested in wanting to share them.

    Addiction runs in my family big-time, and I am forever warning my kids to just stay away. For them, drugs and alcohol are just a waiting time bomb.

    Drinking and drugs have been LETHAL in my extended family.

    ReplyDelete
  91. Know why you can't drink or have premarital sex in Bible college?

    It might lead to dancing.

    ReplyDelete
  92. So much has been said on this its hard to add one more thing, but I think this one is important.

    I have come to think of the consumption of alcohol not as a "liberty issue" or as a "morally-wrong practice", but as a Gospel issue.

    So many times we as Christians use "liberty issues" and "doubtful practices" to hide from the world instead of engaging with them. I have had to rewire my thinking entirely because I don't want to be defending myself and my actions, because I don't want my life to be about that.

    Scripture tells me that I am sent to the world in the same way that Jesus was sent. Jesus prays for this himself in John 17. Jesus regularly spends time with those who drank to excess, had sex to excess, and ate to excess. This was true to the extent that people called Jesus a "drunkard" and a "glutton" (Luke 7:33-35). Jesus was neither because both are defined as sin in Scripture, but he put up with the accusation and challenged those around Him because ultimately He was there to spread what God was doing in Him.

    I don't want my life to be about my rights or my righteousness. I want my life to be about being one who is sent into the world as Jesus was sent, and if He was around people who sinned with alcohol then I can be and should be as well. I need to practice moderation yes. I need to not be a drunkard yes. Ultimately though, this is not about me, it's about those who need Jesus, being a part of their lives and being able to point them to Jesus. A person willingly and wholly empowered by the Spirit of God need not fear "sinning", they need instead fear uselessness.

    ReplyDelete
  93. cProverbs 31:6-7
    Discusses it being a good thing to have alcohol to the point of forgetting poverty and feeling better when sick or in pain.
    John 2:1-12
    Point often missed in this story, not just the volume of the wine 120 gallons but after they had already spent 3 straight days drinking and most would guess that they wouldn’t know whether it was good wine or cheap crummy wine. No condemnation from Christ, just more (and better) wine.
    1 Corinthians 11:24-26
    Every time you drink you should remember Christ. Some of us like to remember our savior more than others (for me a least a couple times a day, but I am really holy).
    Gen 9
    Sometimes people refer to the story of Noah to show why alcohol is bad, but even the fact that drunkenness is bad cannot be inferred from this text. There is no judgment in this text whatsoever. The only point one can draw from this text in isolation is that seeing your dad naked is gross.
    The modern Christian anti alcohol movement was birthed out of 1920’s feminist movement that led the charge to prohibition. The nation realized that more restrictions led to more problems not less. This, I believe, is one of the reasons Christ came to release us of the burden of law. The stricter set of laws a society has the higher the trend towards abuse in that given area. The US has the strictest drug laws in the Western world and the highest drug addiction rate according to recent WHO study. Largely the alcohol question in the Church universal is cultural. I know Baptist churches in South America who would have sangria at potlucks (with MKS partaking in the festivities).
    But we often justify our position using scripture and this is a tragedy. When one perverts the gospel to advance their petty intramural doctrinal position it divides the Church and makes us appear hateful to the outside world. When outsiders looked at the early Church they fell on their knees and worshipped. When they look at the Church today they often laugh and mock. This is more reflective of us than of “them.” Take a class on Biblical Hermeneutics and Exegesis prior to lecturing others on the grape juice that made people forget poverty, pain and cheap wine (I would argue serving cheap wine may be the only sin I think grace may not cover. Don’t EVER bring 2 buck chuck to my house as a gift. EVER. Seriously, don’t do it.).
    Drink or don’t drink. It is your choice. That’s your freedom in Christ. But to spend inordinate amounts of time trying to figure out if one drink or a six pack is “the sinful point” is to turn grace back to law. The Bible uses a generic term, drunkenness. Use good judgment, drink in moderation, make good choices and learn from your mistakes.
    Love God, Love People. That’s how Jesus told us to keep from sinning.

    ReplyDelete
  94. oooooohhh...Is that a picture of a black and tan at the beginning of the post? Man, that looks good. And it's not even 11:00am yet.

    ReplyDelete
  95. This is going to sound like a loaded question, but I really am just looking for an honest answer.

    I am 32 years old and I have never had an alcoholic drink in my life. For those of you who do choose to drink, what is the appeal? What is the benefit to me as a Christian?

    (And please don't tell me that it's good for the heart, because everyone here know that you didn't start drinking just because it was healthy.)

    ReplyDelete
  96. I'd just like to point out that not everyone who abstains from drinking is doing so because they are a fundamentalist or because they are legalistic. Sometimes it's just a personal choice. Everyone is entitled to that.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Anon (the one who responded to my statement about my experience internationally),

    Honestly, I can only speak for the folks that I ministered with in the countries I mentioned. It may be denominationally driven as well. I know that Roman Catholics in most of Latin America have a whole variety of customs involving their local brews and spirits. I actually suspect that much of South America (also Latin) is more accepting of social drinking than the US.

    As to Ukraine... I first must point out that we are not Western Europe. In fact, we are almost as eastern as you get and still be in Europe (ie.as far east as Lebanon and further east than 2/3 of Turkey). To the extent that Western European nations still have significant practicing Christian communities (eg. Sweden is 90+% atheist) they are definitely more accepting of social drinking.

    Here in Eastern Europe, Christian culture developed in isolation behind the iron curtain. The churches that survived are wholly different than their western counterparts. I would guess that many Christians in Asia and Africa probably have similar aversions toward alcohol.

    I mentioned the issues at our camp not to blame anyone. I know that the westerners who had the beer intended no offense and probably assumed that Western European sensibilities applied. Conversely, the camp staff have little experience outside of Ukraine and would never think to emphasize our alcohol policy to a Christian team. In the end, the misunderstanding was resolved but I just wanted to put in an international perspective.

    ReplyDelete
  98. david carrel: ever spent money eating out at a restaurant? couldn't you just cook at home and give the other $$ to missions? that's the same logic you're using in your argument about alcohol being expensive. be consistent.

    some of these comments such as "what good can come of drinking alcohol?" are confounding. what good comes of spending your $50 to go to Disneyland, or buy a new CD? how about watching NFL games (my personal addiction)? does there have to be a tangible spiritual benefit in each activity? even eating birthday cake? this is false piety. lighten up. if I never do anything to offend a brother, then I'd have to always wear a skirt, since I knew several "dresses only" ladies that believe I'm in constant sin in my cut-offs. should I cave to their convictions because (as Paul says) they are weak in faith? and is there a way to be free without parading my liberty (a hearty "YES" here, please). and folks, the world's way of drinking is destructive and abusive...if believers (a la Jesus, apostles, Reformers, etc) can't teach the world how to drink, who will?

    ReplyDelete
  99. I think that drinking depends on your heart and why you drink.

    If you drink becuase you're at a party and you don't want to be left out... then... maybe you should grow a backbone. BUT if you're drinking becuase you want to, no one is pressuring you, and you don't plan to have more than it will take to quench a thirst or go with your meal - I don't think it's a problem.

    It's different for everyone.

    ReplyDelete
  100. did anyone address the "international Christians" question? i'm late to the post & too lazy to read through 92 comments. so shoot me.
    i'd say no, "international Christians" don't worry about it; in fact, they find the American cultural moral quandry about alcohol more than a bit wacky. i grew up in a country with no real legal drinking age, where you can buy beer out of a vending machine. i went to school in the UK, where my university's Christian Union held Bible studies in the dorm pubs. yes, there are pubs attached to every dorm. trust me, discussion about Colossians are much more lively over a pint.
    i ended up having a career that has put me in numerous countries all over the world, and in each one, fellowshipping (possibly the #1 Word Christians Like, other than Jesus) always involved local wine, beer, or other form of alcoholic beverage. America is really the only place i've encountered such a fierce moral opposition to alcohol, but then again, i have not travelled much in the Middle East. anyone out there who can talk about the tone this debate takes in Muslim countries? what if you're a nice Christian British mish who likes beer, and you're in a Muslim country? what then?

    ReplyDelete
  101. I really enjoy reading your blog, I just found it today! Personally I see nothing wrong with having a drink with friends,with dinner, after cutting the grass or even while watching the game/race. The problems start when a person drinks too much and loses their grasp on things like: appropriate things to say, noises that you shouldn't make in public and embracing the concept of "dancing like no one is watching." No matter what others think the one thing I am sure of is that we each can only answer for ourselves when we meet our great Lord so everyone needs to look at themselves before judging others.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Classic! I recently relocated and pulled several of the above to find out if my new Christian friends enjoyed a pint on occasion as well.
    You can almost never go wrong with the, "Man, this (insert function here) would be so much better with a cold one." And then if you get the stare of death, laugh uncontrollably and toss in a "Just kidding," for effect.

    ReplyDelete
  103. I approached the comment section of this post with caution. I was sure I would find over-zealous condemnation of all drinking with only winks at the Bible. Instead, it seems clear that most readers of this site are able to recognize the difference between conventional Christian wisdom (or prejudice?) and sound Biblical thinking. To that I toast. *raises a pint of Red Stripe*

    David,
    You said:
    "10% of people who touch a drink, become alcoholics. If a Pastor of a church tells his congregation it is ok, inevitably, at some point there will be someone in his congregation who falls into sin (drunkenness) as a result of not being able to control himself."

    This is very faulty (no offense intended) logic. You are prescribing precautions the Bible does not use itself.

    If we accept the sufficiency of scripture, we must accept that the Bible contains everything we need (not want) to know about alcohol as a moral issue. If the Bible does not choose to not tell people they can drink because some will invariably abuse it or fall prey to temptation, we cannot reasonably justify this as our own stance.

    There are rarely good reasons to be stricter than the Bible.

    Also, 10% of people who ever drink may become alcoholics (assuming your statistics are right), but those 10% are also the same ones who dove head long into drinking...starting under age with hard partying and no restraint.

    You don't become an alcoholic by drinking, you become an alcoholic by drinking too much frequently.

    ReplyDelete
  104. I think the majority of southern baptist will say that one drink is not a sin. What do you think about having five beers? Is a "buzz" sinful?

    ReplyDelete
  105. it seems that people are forgetting that alcohol is a source of deep emotional pain for a lot of people. and the effects of alcoholism/substance abuse last for many years and generations.

    I'm not disputing the fact that God releases people from those chains...just suggesting that for some people who have that in their family history, it is a VERY sensitive subject and it can take years to form a healthy opinion of alcohol...or to even feel comfortable around the topic. Be gentle....there could be a lot of hurt underneath the reasons.

    A real conversation about it is much better than assuming the non-drinker is simply prude and judgemental.

    the judgement can go both ways. we all just need to remember to act and speak in love and with a gentle spirit.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Wow, I'm shocked at how judgemental all the "drinking is fine" people come across. I don't personally think drinking is a sin - I don't think that is the issue because we live in a culture where alcohol is destroying families in droves, so should we be so easy to say things like "all those judgemental tee-totalers don't believe in grace" etc?

    I don't drink because I don't feel like supporting an industry that has such a large part in destroying families. And if you don't think that is true, open your eyes to the people around you. Or start a Celebrate Recovery program in your church and see how many show up.

    And again, I'm a person that doesn't even think it's a "sin." I also don't struggle with any addiction issues so I don't have any reason to stay away from it per se. I just choose not to do it. I'm surprised at the amount of "anger" toward this opinion here.

    ReplyDelete
  107. anon 10:51,

    alcohol, like chocolate, coffee, red meat, grain, anything we eat, can enhance feelings of joy, celebration and community, hence Jesus reason for partaking and weddings and parties.

    further its pervasiveness in culture should give reason at least to consider trying it.

    Now, the common argument here is to not conform to the world, but we are called to be defined by our love, by reaching out to the poor, widows, slaves, oppressed and imprisoned. If you do all this and also choose to not drink to further be "set apart" fantastic, but not drinking is not what the passages refer to as evidenced by the amount of time spent refering to Jesus and the disciples and alcohol.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Excellent topic. I love how you don't shy away from divisive issues. This has been a big issue with my in-laws, who are and raised my husband strictly Southern Baptist. We are now PCA Presbyterians, so we feel quite differently about the issue. We feel like there is nothing wrong with having a beer while you grill some steaks or watch some Bulldog football, but to get drunk is something different entirely. I personally don't because I don't want to waste my calories on something that I don't really care for but have a hard time stopping doing once I get going.

    As it pertains to others though, who may feel differently (and I apologize if this is redundant, but I didn't read every single response thoroughly), we try to bear in mind the entirety of 1 Cor 8, but particularly vs 9 and 12.

    ReplyDelete
  109. A few people said this or something like this:

    "I think that would just make the situation slightly uncomfortable to have a group of friends all sitting around enjoying a beer and then there's the Christian friend not drinking...possibly making the friends feel slightly judged for their choice to drink."

    This sort of thinking concerns me. We should not conform to the world - in any way - to make other people not feel "judged." This should not be our standard. Jesus should be our standard.

    That being said, the Bible clearly speaks against drunkeness, not drink.

    I usually don't drink, even when in bars or at parties where others drink. (I can get drunk on one glass of wine!) Usually others do not notice or care what I'm drinking (coca cola or water) - but if they do, they almost always think it is cool that I don't feel pressured to do what everyone else is doing. If they ask whether it is a religious choice or another choice, I say "both, really." Many people don't drink because of alcoholism or medication or religion, so it really isn't that big a deal to not drink.

    Finally, even though drink in and of itself is not forbidden, we are also admonished to keep from causing another to stumble. We should be judicious when and where we choose to drink, because others may fall prey to drunkeness or even alcholism because of your example. Maybe there is someone in the room who feels pressured into drinking because everyone else is. If you're not, you take the heat off her. Maybe your children will drink because you do, but they are predisposed to alcoholism. Do you really want that burden?

    So, in a nutshell: not wrong, but sometimes wrong.

    Thanks, Jon!

    ReplyDelete
  110. Good post, Jon.

    I have to say, I've run the gamut on this one, from the "casual drinker" who ended up with a few too many in him, to the "you'll only slightly burn in hell if you sip on a Bud Light".

    Here's where I've landed, for what it's worth.

    I feel that God has convicted me on drinking.

    ME. Not you, not all Christendom. Just me. But because I feel that the Holy Spirit has spoke to my heart on this matter, I feel that it would be sinful for me to actively engage in it. That does not, however, mean that someone else who does is suddenly paving his or her road to damnation with tiny little MGD bottlecaps. I think this type of thing is exactly what Paul had in mind when he told the church at Corinth that "Everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial". In other words, I have the liberty in Christ to do things that may be "gray" areas, but if the Holy Spirit convicts me of it, I have an obligation of obedience to act towards that end.

    That's why so many times now (and there are MANY times), I find it laughable, as a non-drinker, when another person of the Brotherhood of Nondrinkers tells someone they are sinning by enjoying a pint. Yet those are often the same people who are over-eating (I'll take the sin of gluttony for $1000, Alex), gossiping, hiding that porn addiction.....

    You get the picture.

    So I say live by the Spirit. Allow Him to guide your daily life, not a set of rules in a church bulletin. The body of Christ, as a whole, would be SO much better off if they did that.

    ReplyDelete
  111. In the words of Mark Lowry:

    "Jesus' first miracle was just to keep the party going!!"


    However, i did refuse to drink until I turned 21, and still think that underage and irresponsible drinking (aka drunk driving, drinking so much that you do other crazy things)isn't cool.

    A glass of wine with some good friends and lasagna? the coolest.

    ReplyDelete
  112. As a new Christian I was taught that drinking is a sin. But I used to drink before I became a Christian. My mum was an alcoholic so I do have some issues with alcohol. But I do get what you're saying about the difference between a "drinker" and a "drunkard" and I would never judge someone if they drank or not. That comment you're friend made was horrible.. But yeah for me it's a personal choice... one drink could lead to two drinks which could lead to many drinks and I don't really want to deal with that. But I really don't have a problem with a Christian who just has one drink. Haha if I started drinking some of the people at my church would probably have me stoned =P

    ReplyDelete
  113. I'm just guessing, given the volume of "A couple of drinks is nothing to be sent to Hell over" crowd posting that we've determined that the graceless, legalistic, fundamentalist crowd has already been offended and left the SCL building? I'm just sayin'.

    And, for the record, the Bible says "Be not drunk with wine". I think had God really meant "Crossing your lips with alcohol is a ticket straight to hell" He might have mentioned that. Instead, it seems that we are able to enjoy wine, but we are cautioned to stop before we become "drunk". Of course, He made no mention of Rum, so if I plan on over-imbibing, I make certain it doesn't involve wine. Must stick with the letter of the law, don't you know...

    *big ;)*

    ReplyDelete
  114. Thanks Anon at 12:04. That was very well said!

    ReplyDelete
  115. Is a single drink a sin? It could be. It just depends on your situation. Personally, I don’t drink, and never will (again). I hate the feeling of alcohol in my body.

    It is too difficult to draw the line of drunkenness. My friend is in law enforcement and you’d be amazed at how little of alcohol someone can get drunk.

    DRUNK:
    being in a temporary state in which one's physical and mental faculties are impaired by an excess of alcoholic drink

    It doesn’t take much alcohol to impair any of your physical /mental faculties. My cop friend proved it when I witnessed him give a few of his practical DWI tests on my friends that had 3 beers. They failed. They were drunk. On 3 beers! But mostly they seemed 'normal'.

    Also worth mentioning, you shouldn’t drink when pregnant. How would you explain that to your other children if mommy were pregnant with their next sibling?

    I think alcoholism is one the easiest traps to fall into. I think it’s a big tact the enemy uses, and it works. I’ve seen too many relationships, especially marriages, ruined because of it.

    I also think the water Jesus turned into wine was probably nasty. Same reason Simon or whoever was told to drink wine for his stomach, because I think the water was bad.

    BUT, did Jesus drink wine. Yes. Is it a sin to drink wine? Like I said, it could be.

    Just my stance on the subject.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Matty
    Thanks for the info, I'm always interested to hear how cultures differ. You were saying that internationally attitudes were the same and I just wanted to offer some perspective.

    I'm well aware that eastern and western Europe differ but given the general Russian attitude toward drinking, and the former USSR's influence in that part of the world I assumed that in this issue east and west would be similar.

    Do you know if the Russian church feels the same about drinking as the Ukrainians?

    Hadashi, it would probably depend greatly on which country you are in. In some all alcohol is forbidden by law no matter what religion you are.

    ReplyDelete
  117. I don't really have to much to add other than a funny/sad story. I am a PK, a deacon, and I drink. I even hang out in bars. I'm able to go out with my groups of friends on free darts/half price drink night and, for $2, enjoy a drink and 3-4 hours of good conversation and fun. My grandma found out that I spread drinking a beer (sometimes two but that was on the 4-5 hour nights) throughout the night. She lectured me for probably 45 minutes. The best part? "Christians who sit in bars drinking go to hell. If they are so weak that they need a drink, they should just sit at home and drink by themselves." I don't think that she cares that two of my friends (in my school buddies group) have actually changed their views on Christians and accepted Jesus based on our discussions. She would rather have me sit at home drinking alone than see two friends in heaven. Oh, and apparently I'm also a lush because I've gone to a historical winery. :-)

    Anyway, I don't look down on my friends that choose not to drink. But I'm also thankful that they don't judge me either. Dealing with Grandma is more than enough. ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  118. One drink, or two. Not a sin. But a good idea? I don't drink for many reasons, none of them because it's actually a sin.

    "Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible, but not everything builds up." 1 Cor. 10:23

    But now, the question is, will these same methods work when trying to find the Christians who don't drink?

    ReplyDelete
  119. Anonymous 32 year old poster w/ the sincere question about why would someone drink:

    My analogy would be to coffee. For most, coffee is an acquired taste rather than something they liked the first time they had it, unless they had coffee w/ a lot of sugar and cream or some fancy Starbucks creation (the coffee equivalents of a fruity drink, wine cooler etc.)

    But people develop or acquire a taste for coffee and really enjoy the sensation of the warm mug, the aroma and the different flavors and grinds. Many also likes how it makes them feel - caffeine, like alcohol, is a drug. Many first drank coffee for the caffeine even if they weren't crazy about the taste, but then developed a taste for the drink itself.

    That's my attempt to answer your question - it's an acquired taste, but many do in fact come to really enjoy the taste of a good beer, wine or mixed drink. And also, even without getting drunk, it can (like caffeine) make you feel good. The Bible refers to this a few places in a positive context, as referenced above in this thread.

    I know caffeine addiction isn't as destructive as alcohol addiction and there are reasons to be careful w/ alcohol, both practical and scriptural that don't exist w/ coffee. But I think as an example of "why do you personally drink it?" I'll stand by the coffee analogy.

    ReplyDelete
  120. To Sam in NZ. Since I have moved to Hawaii I have come to love Steinlager. It's light (which is great in the heat over here) but has plenty of flavor and bite to it. I realize it's probably the weak export NZ lager, but I love it nontheless.

    A recent conversation with my old pastor (from a large presbyterian church) on my wife and I moving out to HI to do ministry at a Baptist church.

    Pastor: Baptist, huh. So I bet you're saving alot of beer money, eh?
    My wife and I: (long beat of silence), uh, not really...

    ReplyDelete
  121. Great stuff. I'm a youth pastor's wife who drinks. Oh, no!! I said it! It's actually annoying to me, the people that condemn having a glass of wine or a really yummy watermelon margarita at Chevy's for happy hour. :) I was at a baby shower recently that was held in the bar area of Chevy's. I knew that a youth leader of our was going to be there, so I purposefully asked the server to put my margarita in a "normal" glass so it would look like I was drinking a virgin one. Isn't that ridiculous. Honestly, I should have just drank it as is, and she could have dealt with it.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Well i haven't taken the time to read all the comments but you for sure hit a topic of conversation, one i have been stuck in the middle of recently.

    I WAS (was being a key term) an elder / minister in a Church that is mainly conservative and takes a stance of abstinence on the issue of alcohol. Not agreeing with what i saw as a minor issue i thought i could disagree and still be apart of this community i love... I WAS WRONG!

    After I was found out as a wine drinker the proverbial "shit” hit the fan! (I’m not so much a conservative).

    I was pretty much forced out of the church I loved all because I confessed that I drink wine on occasion.

    The church can be a pretty sad place from time to time. And a lot of time it’s because of issues like this.

    LIVE LOVE

    ReplyDelete
  123. I grew up with this topic, and I am so sick of it! I am also sick of people trying to justify it one way or the other. Probably no one will even read this comment since it is like the 111th, but I really can't believe out of all these comments this hasn't been addressed.

    OF COURSE, we all know drinking in and of itself it not a sin. BUT If you are drinking to satisfy an emotional need you need to check yourself and examine your heart. If you are drinking, even one drink, to unwind, because you are stressed,etc... then you are looking for an outside "thing" not going to Jesus, who has the peace that passes understanding. It is NO DIFFERENT that eating either. If I am bored or stressed or worried and I all of a sudden I think, Wow a milkshake would be good right now, it is the same thing! I look for something to fill an emotional need because it's a good easy little "fix." Most Christians don't address this issue (maybe because the food issue is just a little to close to home as well) but when we use food or alcohol, or sleep, or books, or whatever to temporarily take us out of our feelings we are substituting that instead of going to God

    I have no problem with alcohol, it is just when and why those drinks are consumed in your life. I just think everyone has to examine their motives about why they want things. Also another point that I am surprised that has not been commented on is this, when drinking regardless of if it is one drink or four, it causes you to lose some of your inhibitions.

    I know in high school it was talked about as being an issue for promiscuity but, as a grown woman, I have problems trying to control my tongue as it is. After having a drink, I am alot more apt to "share my mind" with whoever I am with. It is alot harder to "show the love of Jesus" when my bridle is lose on my tongue. I generally don't hold something in that I should when I "feel" relaxed. So that is not really beneficial.

    Also to speak on some of the other posts, I too am astounded to hear someone say they wouldn't invite someone over to their house again if they had a problem with them drinking alcohol. Different people come to realities in their christian walk. Just like Jon said, it takes some people longer to smash inherited beliefs than others. I didn't even really start examining how I felt about this subject myself until about 2 years ago, (and I'm 31) I just was comfortable with my parent's belief. I was working out my own salvation in other areas at the time.

    ReplyDelete
  124. Sam Adams summer ale is a fine beverage

    ReplyDelete
  125. I also do not understand the appeal alcohol has for some people. (I also don't understand why some people like camping. Indoor plumbing is my friend.)

    I grew up in a no-alcohol home. I don't remember my parents saying anything specific about it, but I got the general impression that alcohol was to be avoided. When I was in college, I spent some time with non-Christian friends who liked to drink frequently (and often got tipsy). During that time, I tasted a variety of drinks that they were having, and found most of them to be very unpleasant. The ones that weren't tasted like fruit juice. So I figured, if you don't intend to get tipsy/drunk, and if the only decent-tasting alcoholic beverages taste like fruit juice, then why not just drink fruit juice? It's healthier.

    I have never bought alcohol myself, and don't intend to. If I'm at a function where wine is being served, I might have one serving (or a half-serving), but more to go along with the crowd than because I really want it. (And I'm not always a crowd-pleaser, but I don't think one glass of wine is inherently bad, so I think it's okay to "fit in" by having a little.)

    On another note, I recently met a Christian guy who I thought was kind of cute. Soon after we met, we both went with some other friends to a Mexican restaurant with a bar after church to get dinner. This guy had already eaten, and he bought himself a beer which he sipped while we ate. Then he went on and on about all these different kinds of beers he's had in different countries. It sounded like it was a big hobby for him. I was put off by this, as I would be by any Christian who got real excited about alcohol. That sounds like a dangerous attitude to me. Like it would be easy to get over-excited and drink too much. So I don't think this guy is so much of a date potential now, though I'm still interested in being friends.

    I also feel put-off when my Christian friends say they "need" caffeine in the morning to get going, or that they've gotten a headache from caffeine withdrawal. That signals addiction to me, which I think IS sinful.

    ReplyDelete
  126. To Matty (from Ukraine)
    I was a missionary in Kharkov for 2 years - my husband is an MK from there for like the last decade. Christians never drank in our city and we didn't either. . . until invited to a policeman's house where the wife tearfully implored me to get my husband to have a glass of wine as the policeman ( a non Christian) had gone to a lot of trouble to go all the way to the central church and have the bottle blessed for this special visit from an American pastor. It was the first time he'd been near a church in ages. Of course we accepted a glass and talked about the kinds of people you find in a church ( the cop decided we were the kind that loved people) We told our church and they were shocked! But it opened up a nice dialogue about cultural evangelism.
    Personally, I did start drinking for health reasons - wine was recommended as an alternative to alleviate ulcer symptoms when I was on the field and away from anitibiotics and antacids. Liked the tast of some girly rose and drink it with chicken ( and my husband) now and again. My family's family are all alcoholics, but my parents, who were teetotalers, raised us to believe there was nothing wrong with a drink or two, just that most of our family can't stop at that. Now that the relations are sober, there is an occasional bottle of wine at Thanksgiving (and I think we are all the more thankful!)

    ReplyDelete
  127. Ok, I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if anyone has said this already. But there is another commenter who said that most international Christians don't drink. How can we make that statement? Is there a poll out there?

    I think it all boils down to social conventions, not necessarily Biblical mandate.

    And thats all I have to say about that.

    ReplyDelete
  128. It is very eye opening to me to read the comments on this post. I had no idea that so many Christians were okay with social drinking. I have only had one drink in my life and I didn't really like the taste. What surprises me are the comments about having a good time by drinking. I have a good time everywhere I go and I never have to drink to do it. Also, some comments have mentioned that it makes drinking people uncomfortable that you are not drinking with them. I don't think that is a valid argument, because I have been out with my family members and other friends who had drinks and they had no problem with me drinking water. That being said, I don't necessarily think that having one drink is a sin. But when does it become a sin? How do you know when you've crossed that line into sin? Is it two drinks, or a drink and a half, or when your speech is slurred...
    I think that for me, I don't see a reason to drink alcohol. I live in the south and if I exercised my "freedom" and had a drink, I would cause many people to think I had backslid and also cause my unsaved family members to say that all Christians are hypocrits. They wouldn't think, "Cool, it's about time that Hayley came down to our level to share God's love."

    ReplyDelete
  129. I just want to point out a wonderful site called "Beer is Proof" from the Ben F. quote:

    http://www.beerisproof.org

    I love my employer.

    ReplyDelete
  130. The last time I drank beer was in 1989 at 3 in the morning when I was craving Lucky Charms but discovered there was no milk. So I poured beer on the Lucky Charms and, well, you can imagine the rest.

    No beer for me. I do enjoy myself a mocha martini or margarita, though. Mmm.

    ReplyDelete
  131. Kirsten and Dave,. I hope that my comments were not taken as judgmental towards people who drink, although after rereading my post, I see how that is possible.

    Yes, I have spent money eating out at restaurants. I usually like to take my wife out every once in a while. We do usually cook at home or get a 5$ Little Caesar’s Pizza or eat off the dollar menu. I guess that I am kind of weird for doing that. I see your argument and see that point was definitely flawed. I think that you would agree that it is hard to know whether not to explain yourself really well, or to keep your post to a readable limit, especially on hot topics like this that books could be written on. I agree you do need to spend money and have a good time at times. I guess that I am arguing about drinking often and spending loads of money (ie… say someone drank 10 dollars a week of alcohol, that is 520 a year). That money could go somewhere else, rather than the alcohol industry. Yes, maybe a flawed argument, but I guess you need to know me better to understand it. (My wife and I are missionaries making not as much as the average person). So money for us needs to go farther than other people. You said to be consistent, and I see your point, but without going into details, I do try to be consistent with that argument in my own life.

    You question my “What good can come of drinking alcohol” comment, but what is the answer? My brothers drink and we had this discussion a couple of weeks ago. My brother said that it loosened him and his friend up so that they could talk about good spiritual issues. Driscoll wrote that Spurgeon and others would drink and discuss theology. I am sure they did, and I wish that I could have heard them in that discussion. I have no problem with that, but can you have those discussions without alcohol? I would think so. Maybe not, maybe I am wrong. That is why I asked that question. I hope that I never appear to be a close minded fundamentalist, haha. And as far as all we do having a point; whether you eat, or drink, do all to the glory of God. (And resting is part of that, if you consider that to be drinking alcohol, watching NFL (I won’t tell you who I root for as that would totally discredit me from ever speaking a word again), or CD’s, or Disneyland).

    I like what you said in the end about teaching the world how to drink. You have a great point in that. Also, me lightening up, you are probably right. But I still am not (or at least I try not to be) judgmental on those who do drink. Once again, thanks for the comments and God bless. Sorry if I wasted your time writing too much; it was good for me to think through my flawed argument as I am always trying to grow in grace. God bless.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Karl,

    Thanks. That makes sense to me especially since I love coffee. I started drinking it as a kid before I even knew what caffeine was. My grandparents always had a fresh pot of coffee. We just sat around talking and drinking our coffee. So it was a social thing like alcohol is for many.

    Now that I am older, I have an appreciation for various brews and blends of coffee. So I see your point about enjoying various beers and wines.

    Thanks again for taking my question seriously and giving me a rational, logical response. I do appreciate that.

    However, I still feel like I'm not missing anything. And if I have a choice, I'll stick to the coffee because nobody ever wrecked a car, started a fight, had an affair, lost their virginity, killed a friend, lost a job, or abused a child because of having too much coffee.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Here is some good old King James to add to the discussion:

    Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

    30They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

    31Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

    32At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

    33Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

    34Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

    35They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

    Verse 31 says don't even look at "the wine when it is red", meaning the grape juice when it is fermented. The Hebrew had no word to distinguish "juice" from "alcoholic beverage", thus the confusion about Jesus being a bootlegger, and the clarification here.

    I love the blunt honesty of the scriptures: further proof that men didn't write this stuff, but God did. Alcohol appeals to our flesh, and we are called to crucify the flesh, take up our cross and follow Christ. Even on the cross, when we all know the Lord could have used a stiff drink, He refused the gall because He would not dull the pain of the cross, the pain He bore for my sin and yours. His example should be our model.

    Quick test: ask some non-Christians if they think Christians should drink. Do they see drinking as hypocritical? If we are Christians, not just people who are saved, but Christians, which means "Christ-Like" and not "affiliated with TBN", then we will endeavor to deny our flesh and die daily to our silly little wants.

    ReplyDelete
  134. Had to laugh at the "Greek and Hebrew words could mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine." Duh... fermented grape juice IS wine, people! Also, before pasteurization was invented, it was pretty much impossible for juice to stay juice - fermentation is the natural result. The teetotal communion service was made possible only once Mr.Welch (yes, the grape juice guy) had found a way to mass-produce pasteurized grape juice - in the 19th century.

    It's pretty clear from John 2:10 that the wine Jesus made at Cana was in fact alcoholic.

    As one of my friends puts it:

    I have a friend who drinks wine
    He even made wine.
    He even gave wine to his friends to drink, and asked them to remember him when they drank wine.
    And if He's not going to be in heaven, NOBODY is.

    I'm not saying there are people who don't have really good reasons for avoiding alcohol of any sort, whether spiritual ones, or because they are alcoholicas & can't have any alcohol without grave harm. I just think too many evangelicals make it into a test of
    "are you holy or not", which is, last time I checked, also contrary to Scripture.

    This isn't even close to the tattoo question. Jesus & all the disciples drank wine. The only two people in Scripture who never drank wine were Samson & John the Baptist, who were Nazirites.

    ReplyDelete
  135. I know that commenting this far down, my odds of being read are pretty slim, but I thought I'd throw in here anyway on the off chance of getting some people's opinions on something. It sounds like most of the people here would pretty generally agree that the issue of whether drinking is right or wrong is more a matter of personal situation, circumstances, or culture, than a Biblical absolute (that is to say, a single drink is okay, but there are some people who shouldn't and some times when people shouldn't).

    So, I'm wondering what people think about drinking for college students. I'm a Christian student at an American public university, recently turned 21. Some of my Christian friends here drink, and some of them don't. I personally feel that while drinking isn't condemned in the Bible, it would weaken my witness at this point in my life. The main reason I feel this way is because of the subculture I am currently a part of. Drinking on my campus is something that is associated with partying, drunkenness, excess, loose living, etc. While it is quite possible for me to have a single drink without doing any of those things, if one of my fellow students simply sees me with a drink (and doesn't sit down to have a whole discussion on the matter with me), what is going to keep them from thinking I condone or partake in that sort of lifestyle? I think there are other cultures and times in life when an occasional drink would not be harmful - when I am 30 or 40 I don't think anyone who saw me drinking would assume I were a partier. But in this case the "drinking culture" on my campus is something I want to clearly set myself apart from.

    ReplyDelete
  136. Internationally, I can speak pretty definitively for Mexico and Central America. The Christians believe it's a sin. They don't drink. Culturally, alcoholism is a problem - the Christians don't partake so they can be set apart and different.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Being from an Australia Lutheran Church, the sacred beverage of port is a staple of the Lutheranian's diet (along with playing 500 and singing Robin Mann songs)
    So it's never been a big issue for me.

    Of course I have discovered that the best cure for a sore throat when one is leading the singing, is a good sip or two of the red stuff.

    So clearly, my drinking is simply for medicinal purposes. You could even stretch it so far as to be glorifying God better than if i was singing with a sore and yucky sounding voice *nods*

    As for my stance: drinking = ok
    drinking to become drunk, or slipping into drunkenness - not ok.

    Like any other sin, this one can be elevated/devalued according to our own perceptions of what sins are 'worse' than another. How easily we forget that our God is a holy God, who cannot tolerate sin of any sort, be it a little lie or murder.

    'nuff said by me.

    ReplyDelete
  138. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  139. Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.
    Proverbs 31: 6-7

    FYI. Just FYI.

    ReplyDelete
  140. Well this is what i learned...
    when the Bible talks about wine, there are three different kinds of wine.
    Old wine - the alcoholic stuff
    New wine - our grape juice
    wine - used for preserving things due to a lack of refrigeration, never really drunk by the people though.

    every time the bible mentions the old wine, it says to stay away from it... when Jesus turned water into wine it was the new wine.

    Also what is the motive behind drinking it? To have pleasure most would say. Well, it is also very pleasurable to have sex outside marriage im sure (dont know never done it) but that doesnt mean its not a sin. thats just my opinion

    ReplyDelete
  141. I raise several Black & Tans (to the glory of God) for Jon, and to everyone on both sides of the argument.

    There is no sound Biblical argument against alchohol use but we do live in a culture that abuses everything from food to prescriptions. What more redeeming act can we have (ESPECIALLY as Church leaders) than to show pagans and Christians with addictions alike that "the earth is the Lord's and everything in it" by not being like the culture and binge drinking, but rather enjoying all things (alchohol included) rightly because God made them? (Kristen & Dave did make the point I was just restating it in a more confusing manner)

    I realize that several folks don't get why anyone is defending or promoting the use of alchohol:
    1) because Jesus and Paul did
    2) because you need practice for the Sabbath feast on the new earth so you aren't the first to pass out and miss your crowning
    3) it makes theological discussions and Bible study go much deeper than the surface
    4) because Scripture never told us not to drink
    5) for the glory of God

    ReplyDelete
  142. I ENJOY THE TASTE!!!!!!!!!!!
    to all of these anonymous people wondering why people drink in the first place... despite the issues that can arise from drinking too much (try drinking to many hyper-caffeine energy drinks at once, btw!)...

    why do i drink? i know this will come as a big shocker to the beverage world, but I ENJOY THE TASTE. the various complexities and subtleties of well-made beers and wines cannot be compared to any other beverage. (i mean the monks have been working hundreds of years getting some of these processes right)

    some people are coffee snobs and enjoy the micro-roasted beans with their flavors, some enjoy organic juices, some enjoy caustic compostitions of syrupy acids and soda water (diet, mind you!), and some enjoy alcoholic beverages.

    period.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Beezle, good point that wine is only to be used as a sedative.

    ReplyDelete
  144. Roda, great post.

    ReplyDelete
  145. After reading these comments, I have come up a with a template that could be used to start a million conversations like this one.

    "I enjoy a good ________ from time to time. Is that a sin?"

    Here are some ideas to get you started:

    - cigarette
    - cigar
    - joint
    - fattening snack
    - caffeinated drink
    - tattoo
    - bootleg DVD
    - game of poker
    - revealing outfit
    - teasing
    - R-rated movie
    - PG-rated movie
    - speeding
    - expensive purchase
    - gossip
    - argument
    - time waster
    - x even though AFA is protesting it
    - Harry Potter book
    - Family Guy episode
    - Simpsons episode
    - prostitute
    - swear
    - dirty joke
    - rap song
    - rock song
    - country song
    - dance
    - time with my Christian friends only
    - time with my non-Christian friends only
    - sarcastic remark
    - lottery ticket

    ReplyDelete
  146. So if we have to go through all of the trouble with secret handshakes and winks and nods, is it really something we need to be doing anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  147. We as Christians like to make the drinking issue about scripture, but honestly, when has any recent issue really been about the authority of scripture in our lives. The real issue in my opinion is the fear of man and not the fear of God. We fear not being liked or not fitting in. So we either hide our strong drink or we abstain from strong drink.

    By the way, I'm working on a book, the title:"Weaker Brother, GET OVER IT!"

    ReplyDelete
  148. Oh please Lord, let me never love anything to eat or drink more than I love people.

    Look around your neighborhood/church/family. See any negative results from alcohol?
    Any marriages broken?
    Any families torn apart?
    Anyone dead from a drunk driver?
    .....
    Is alcohol really important enough to you that you would take a chance on encouraging someone reading your blog that its OK?

    ReplyDelete
  149. This will reiterate part of an earlier post, but I see a lot of the anti-drinking folks (not all) failing to address this.

    The classical Christian virtue is temperance, not abstinence. The practice of moderation. The right thing, in the right amount, at the right time and under the right circumstances. The previously posted quote by C.S. Lewis says it better than I could, and conveys the idea that I fail to see addressed in some of these posts:

    "Temperance is, unfortunately, one of those words that has changed its meaning. It now usually means teetotalism... [In the past,] temperance referred not specially to drink, but to all pleasures; and it meant not abstaining, but going the right length and no further. It is a mistake to think that Christians ought all to be teetotalers; Mohammedanism [Islam], not Christianity, is the teetotal religion.

    "Of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian, or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much, or because he is with people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself. But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for a good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying. One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons--marriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who use them, he has taken the wrong turning."

    ReplyDelete
  150. My post earlier was light hearted, but seriously I was convicted of this because I used have one (only one) drink with friends pretty regularly. And then one night, I found myself looking forward to the drinks just a little. That scared me. So from that point on, I determined not to drink like that anymore. Now I may have half a glass of wine once in a blue moon for a special occasion or just a sip of a friend's margarita. But no more ordering drinks for me. Also, I came to realize that I would never ever want my freedom to cause someone else to think Christians are hypocrites or cause another brother or sister to stumble. So just remember that drinking is OK but always check your heart and remember who you may be around.

    ReplyDelete
  151. I hope it's not a sin.... Young's Double Chocolate Stout is a near spiritual experience. Come on people, let's get over the small stuff so we can focus on the big stuff huh?

    ReplyDelete
  152. Jeff,

    I agree that we should not spend a lot of time debating the "small stuff". However, a lot of the "small stuff" discussions on SCL lately has really caused me to dig into my Bible and question what I believe and why. And sometimes that leads me to thinking about the "big stuff". And if I can grow in my faith from a discussion about drinking or tattoos, then I don't see a problem talking about it.

    Besides, what is small stuff and what is big stuff anyway? That's another gray area that we can discuss. :)

    (Sorry to single you out because I know a lot of other people have made the same comment.)

    ReplyDelete
  153. Abita Turbodog
    Stella Artois


    I just thought the comments needed a few choice beers.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Obviously I can't real all 156 comments before me, so this may have been said already...

    I believe it would be nearly a sin for me not to consume alcoholic beverages. As per Judg. 9:13, it makes God happy.

    And besides...the bit over 1800 years of church history prior to the fundamentalist movement cherished the bubbly stuff. So I'll bypass all the detective work and just bust out a brewski to break the ice.

    ReplyDelete
  155. I've been thinking about this topic ever since I read the post yesterday. It really got the wheels churning for me. I have also been reading through a lot of the comments and I think everyone has made some excellent points.

    I want to retract a statement I made yesterday in a comment that said something like "it's awkward to be the one person not drinking and it might make your buddies, who are drinking, feel judged." Honestly, I don't know why I said that, because it doesn't reflect what I truly believe and feel we are called to do as Christians. It's not okay to drink for the sole purpose of not wanting to offend anyone or have them feel like you are judging them. As Christians, we are set to a higher standard, and I don't think we can justify giving into something just to spare the feelings of someone else.

    I also think that those of us who do think it's okay to drink need to be especially careful about how we come across on this topic. We gripe about Christians who don't drink and claim that they're being too judgmental, when we often come off the same way. I have seen several comments on here that say something like "Get your panties out of a wad and realize that drinking isn't a sin!" I don't think that's the right attitude, either.

    It's so funny, after reading this post, I got together with a friend for our usual Tuesday night hang out time. She was telling me about roommate issues she's having, and it centered around alcohol. She used to be okay with drinking, but upon examining the motives behind the drinking and the way these other Christians were making alcohol the purpose and center of their fellowship, she decided that she wasn't okay with it anymore. Upon discussing this with her roommates, and declining an invitation to a party where there would be drinking, she said that they were angry at her for changing her mind and not coming to the party and for not being okay with drinking anymore. She now feels alienated from HER OWN group of friends, simply because she has made the PERSONAL decision not to drink.

    Unfortunately, as Christians, we get so caught up on these little issues, and we let them tear away at our relationships with other people, when really we should be reaching out, supporting our brothers and sisters, and doing our best to become the ONE body of Christ that we are called to be. I have realized, as a result of this post (Thank you, Jon) that the people who don't drink have their reasons and convictions, and who am I to question that or condemn that or take that lightly? I have also realized moreso than before just how sticky this whole drinking issue can be, and how much we really do need to consider it before we partake in any kind of alcoholic beverage. Just some more thoughts I had.

    I love the discussion and appreciate your boldness in covering some of these hot-button issues of Christianity.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Too many people in our church have seen the ugly side drinking. Alcohol is associated with too much drama for us to merrily sip a cerveza with other social drinkers.

    I don't refrain from drinking to keep others from stumbling. I choose not to drink in order to keep that part of my ministry life uncomplicated.

    ReplyDelete
  157. allison,

    wow, side hug for that excellent comment!


    alyson,

    pardon me for being so frank, but you sound a bit immature. if you're going to be in the ministry, you might want to rethink the screw-you-i'll-do-what-i-want attitude.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Why are we sometimes so quick to recognize the ugly side of drinking and avoid all drinking, but so slow to react this way to other activities that can be destructive and/or addictive?

    The ugly side of consumerism is rampant in the west, with marriages wrecked, parents' relationships with their kids nonexistent or strained, due to an addiction to a certain lifestyle, unnecessary and unwise use of credit, overspending, living at the very top of (or above) our means, workaholism or keeping a career that takes one away from the family and makes one miserable but which "must" be kept b/c we can't imagine downsizing our lifestyle, etc. Yet how often do we hear consumerism decried in conservative Christian circles? In my experience the answer is: some; a little more than we used to. But not nearly enough. Nor do we hear (very many) calls to avoid a capitalistic system altogether just because consumer capitalism can have a very ugly and destructive side.

    That's not really a pro-drinking or anti-buying-anything argument. Nor am I equating overconption with overdrinking as if they are exactly the same, with exactly the same consequences. Just some musings.

    ReplyDelete
  159. When I went on a mission trip to Italy, we would go to the bar and talk about Jesus after having a Bible study. This is the common thing to do there. In fact, the Italians often asked us, "Why is it that Americans feel the need to get drunk if they have a drink?"
    Just like any other thing in life, I think that drinking can become sinful if you do not do it in moderation. However, it's the same as any other addiction or sin issue- there is such a fine line to be walked in the Christian life...

    ReplyDelete
  160. Hallelujah!!

    I used to be a teetotaller (sp?), but now I've relaxed--I have two toddlers right smack in the middle of the terrible two's, and sometimes momma just needs a drink. :)

    I used to have a great big stick placed strategically where a stick shouldn't be, but priase God, Jesus changed me into someone that just doesn't care anymore.

    Seriously, nothing helps me priase Jesus more than a good glass of wine and a nice PG-13 chick flick. I'm so thankful for the little things. :)

    ReplyDelete
  161. Moderation in all things that are beneficial, except for enjoying the love of God. Get drunk on that, your wine will taste better :)

    ReplyDelete
  162. as you all said, drinking is not a sin. i choose not to drink when i hang out with my college, non christian friends because i want them to know that Jesus makes me different from them. if there's wine in my christian friend's wedding, i will drink it. and that does not make a hypocrite, i just think that there are certain situations that require me to say no to alcohol.

    ReplyDelete
  163. I've got one more for you....

    Collect the wine corks from bottles you've consumed with your spouse over the 20 years you've been together and display them PROUDLY in a HUGE bowl on the dining room table...and use them to make a fun wreath...and a bulletin board.

    Heh, nobody has to ask me. :)

    ReplyDelete
  164. Non-believers often do find Christians who drink hypocritical. I stopped drinking altogether a few years ago and it was all about the whole not-causing-your-brother-to-stumble bit.

    Although I consider myself a young Christian of only about a decade, I am in my late 30s and others consider me a strong one. I am very open about my faith and share it with anyone who will let me. I teach freshmen at a huge party school and alcohol is a big part of many of their lives. So if they see me, the well-known strong Christian, with a beer at a BBQ or with a glass of wine at a dinner, they assume that I condone drinking, whether it's social drinking or just kicking back. The problem is, I'm grown. I can handle one or two. When I was 18 (and when I was 25) I drank until I couldn't drink anymore. I don't want to encourage that behavior the students at my school, who lose classmates EVERY YEAR to alcohol.

    A good way to avoid them believing I am judging them is to tell them of my testimony when they find out I don't drink. "I don't drink. But I drank enough in high school and college to last you a couple of lifetimes. I'm lucky to be alive." That leaves them wanting to know more.

    ReplyDelete
  165. Having a Mike's right now, actually. Thanks for talking about this. It's nice to see so many people getting past this.
    Cheers indeed

    ReplyDelete
  166. wow...this one spawned the most dramatic slew of comments i have ever encountered. i abhor legalism. i love the world God provided (note that i didn't use grammar's middle finger even though i haven't used capital letters thus far). seriously, we are meant to enjoy art and music and nature and earth whilst loving the Lord. i simply detest the concept of "do's" and "don'ts". what about morality and God's word?

    ReplyDelete
  167. I wonder if God had His hands in the making of wheat beer...
    Don't sweat it. I believe there is nothing wrong with it every once in a while, though it COULD be the product of something deeper for some people at some times, to be sure. I know there have been amazing conversations about salvation, love, glory, and peace over a pint. A few of my buddies and I are actually doing a little home-brewing/guy's "small group". What a great way to experience community, friendship, and being normal 'ol guys who love God.
    Cheers!

    ReplyDelete
  168. Okay, okay...I get it. Some folks enjoy a brewskie & don't over-do it.

    *Nowwww...do a thought provoking SCL post on "Subtly Finding Out If You Smoke, Too".

    [Do Xians enjoy smoking & drinking ?]

    campman62.wordpress.com

    ReplyDelete
  169. In the Old Testament, God commanded Israel to drink wine and other fermented beverages as part of their worship celebration in Jerusalem.
    Deuteronomy 14:26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, WINE or OTHER FERMENTED DRINK (aka beer), or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. (NIV)

    ReplyDelete
  170. Anon,

    So is that why you drink? As part of an Old Testament worship ritual?

    ReplyDelete
  171. I read the original post (when I discovered SCL in April, I read all the archives, and have read everything ever since...), yet can't seem to remember it. Which is funny, since this is a topic that bugs me too. As you stated, drinking is fine. It's getting drunk that is the problem. And certainly, if you never try any alcohol, you will never risk getting addicted, but that doesn't mean those of us who love a margarita with a steak dinner have to ask forgiveness for it.

    I actually think that there are some instances where drinking (not getting drunk) is a better witness than not. I have a friend in the Navy who used to not drink beer. He didn't particularly care for it. But when an unsaved friend at work would say, "Hey, we're going out to the bar to grab a few beers. Do you want to come?" if he said no, they got all awkward like, "Oh yeah, you're a Christian." So, he basically got himself to like beer (sort of like I've been doing with coffee, so I can fit in with other church people ;o) ), and now he can hang out with those guys without them feeling like he's judging them as he sits there watching them chug a bottle of frothy hell juice. It's opened up a lot of great conversations.

    And for the record, I used to be one of those who did the whole raised eyebrows, audible gasp thing when I found out someone I knew drank. Of course, that was all before I was legal. Hehe. My parents were raised Baptist and never drank. My mom has recently begun to enjoy a glass of wine when out with friends, but my dad still abstains and will argue for never trying a sip.

    As for telling who drinks and who doesn't, you can pretty much just ask if they're Baptist. LOL. I like to pick on Baptists. It's fun. Although, your ways to find out made me laugh, as I remember when my husband and I found out our former boss at a large Christian organization was an Aerosmith fan, like we are. That was a great moment.

    And finally, to wrap up this huge comment, I would like to say that I don't really see hiding your beer in the garage, or putting it somewhere ultra-conservatives won't see it, as a bad thing. After all, by doing so you are keeping them from stumbling. And that's a good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Oh, yes, and also? Thank you for ranting a bit about taking those verses out of context. That is one of my biggest pet peeves, even when done for noble reasons. (E.g., people using Jeremiah 29:11 as a promise to encourage themselves, when, unless they're Jewish, it isn't about/to them.) Typically when nonChristians quote the Bible to throw it in our faces, they take it out of context. You'd think this would bother Christians enough that we'd stop doing it ourselves, but I have heard SO many topical sermons where the pastor just yanked a verse bloody and screaming out of context to suit his topic. Sure, his topic may be biblical, and what he says that verse means may also be biblical, but if his usage of the verse is not what the author intended it for when he wrote it, then it is not God's Word. Does that make sense? Anyway, obviously this really bothers me. Of course, it bothers me when anyone is quoted out of context, so it makes sense that what I believe is the actual Word of God being misquoted drives me up the wall.

    ReplyDelete
  173. wow! This one has a lot of posts! I agree that having one drink is not technically a "sin." However, since drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God, I don't want to be anywhere near the line when the trumpet sounds! Know what I mean? Separation from God for an eternity is certainly not worth risking for a drink!

    ReplyDelete
  174. I'm wondering how much of a stickler Jesus was about drunkenness if he made gallons of awesome wine at the wedding AFTER all of the cheap stuff ran out. I doubt he was going around making sure everyone only had 'one drink'.

    Personally, I don't drink. Not even a little bit. But I accept and expect people my age to drink and I'm totally cool with that. Usually I'm the one driving to the bar.

    ReplyDelete
  175. I do drink beer but for the taste, much like someone who likes fine food. Unless you can show me in the Bible where it says a Christian must not drink, leave it alone. Don't show me a verse that mentions "drunk" or "drunkard". That's not what I'm talking about. I enjoy a good beer most every evening. "A" beer doesn't cause me to become drunk. I just love the taste. If you want to preach to me anything, you better back it up with Scripture. That's my guide. I'm not above learning, just show me the verse.

    ReplyDelete
  176. I do drink beer but for the taste, much like someone who likes fine food. Unless you can show me in the Bible where it says a Christian must not drink, leave it alone. Don't show me a verse that mentions "drunk" or "drunkard". That's not what I'm talking about. I enjoy a good beer most every evening. "A" beer doesn't cause me to become drunk. I just love the taste. If you want to preach to me anything, you better back it up with Scripture. That's my guide. I'm not above learning, just show me the verse.

    ReplyDelete
  177. Just discovered this site today and love that this was the most recent post. Didn't read all of the comments, but I did want to respond to one thing:

    "Non-believers often do find Christians who drink hypocritical."

    I rarely see this to be the case. What most non-Christians know about the Bible and Christianity is that we are supposed to be kind to others and respect people and help the poor. So a non-Christian is much more likely to look at a pastor who drives a Corvette as hypocritical, or someone who is arrogant and mean... in fact, most of the non-Christians I interact with wouldn't think twice about anyone having a drink. The people who get *most* offended about a Christian drinking.... is other Christians. And quite honestly, I don't care what they think.

    ReplyDelete
  178. At least my beer doesn't have the "yeast of the Pharisees" in it.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Quoth someone: "I don't have a problem with other Christians drinking occasionally but (like a few others have mentioned) I find it weird when they become all defensive about it. That makes me think they are feeling guilty."

    Guilty? No.

    Defensive, maybe. But maybe that's because Pharisaism is offensive.

    I daresay you'd be offended if a brother said to you:

    "The Bible is clear that you should not adorn yourself with jewelry, nice haircuts and fine clothes. Besides, you should be spending your money on something else. And furthermore, wouldn't your witness be much more effective if you demonstrated how different you were from your neighbors by wearing only plain apparel? You're clearly in sin, and your rebellion against my perspective is leading both Christians and non-Christians into sin, possibly damnation."

    At the very least, you'd be justifiably annoyed. And you'd probably protest, "Um, there are lots of instances in the Bible where people wear jewelry. And what I give to the Lord is between me, my spouse and my church. And no, I don't think that my witness would be more effective if I made the point to express my sense of piety and moral superiority through external displays of mock humility."

    Perhaps the person would respond, "Well, 'jewelry' is a hard word to define, and when the bible says 'gold' it really means 'element,' which is another way of saying 'soil.' And what's the benefit of wearing jewelry? And if you buy one ring, you're more likely to become addicted to materialism and shopping. And what happens if another non-believer sees you coming out of a jewelry store? They won't know if you went in to have your watch fixed or to buy a 10 carat ring..."

    At which point, you'd probably go, "Whaaa?!! Now you're really off the reservation here. Where do you get off twisting scripture to tell me what I'm doing is a sin, especially when it's clear to me that many great men and women of faith wore jewelry. Perhaps you're not the safest person for me to 'fellowship' with..."

    At which point, your non-believing neighbors would look at both of you quizzically, roll their eyes and judge both of you as irredeemably irrelevant.

    And that would be a pity.

    The facts seem clear to me. The Bible does not condemn drinking or drinkers. Jesus made wine. Real wine. He also drank wine. Real, alcoholic wine. And he served it to people at a wedding. People who had already had plenty to drink -- so much so, that they would have accepted cheap wine and not known the difference.

    If you really think that it's a sin to drink, you should probably find a new religion, one that doesn't have a "drunkard and a glutton" as its center.

    As far as "the benefit" of drinking? Aside from the clear health benefits, it tastes good. What are the benefits of wearing jewelry? It looks good.

    Clearly, there's a point at which both consumption of alcohol and "adornment with finery" becomes a sin. If you're concerned that you can't navigate that path, please don't drink. And don't buy jewelry.

    But don't accuse me of sinning because I don't have a problem with a little bit of either.

    And before we get too far on the "weaker brother" topic, I should point out that Paul never intended to create a "weaker brother card" that supposedly mature Christians can pull out any time they want to assert their moral superiority over their fellow believers.

    Anyway. I've rambled. And I've come across as a little more angry than I had intended. But the yeast of the Pharisees is far more addictive and dangerous than the yeast that makes my beer so yummy.

    ReplyDelete
  180. I'm also late to this discussion, but I have a few questions.

    To those who are concerned about being a stumbling block, does this mean that you believe that Jesus was being a/creating a stumbling block to others when he drank?

    I challenge those who believe that there is no good that comes from drinking alcohol to consider why Jesus did it, then.

    If drinking is being part of the world instead of set apart, then isn't Jesus tainting himself with worldliness when he creates it (to get along? crowd pleasing?) or drinks it?

    Why would God command something like the drinking of wine for Jewish holidays and commemorations if all alcohol consumption was sinful?

    How could Jesus lift the cup at the Last Supper and declare it his blood which we should partake of, if wine is sinful?

    I do have a problem with Christians who call drinking a sin. It is not. It is clearly and demonstrably not a sin from scripture, and the near universal tradition of the church. It is only the recent teetotaler movement, mostly in the US that seems to think this way. This is an innovation and a dangerous one, because it seeks to create a category of sin that God did not.

    If someone chooses not to drink, for whatever reason, I have no problem with that. My husband doesn't drink, though he has no problem with other people doing so. We allow our children, who are under 21, to take sips of wine, and they partake of the Eucharist fully. At parties at our home, if the parents are present and allow their children a drink, we don't worry about it. We won't serve it to minors other than our children, or provide it for minors without their parents present, permission and the parents actually giving it to them.

    If a church decides they think it is a good spiritual discipline to refrain from wine (as some communities refrain from marriage or material things, etc), then I have no problem with it. I won't be joining them any time soon, but I have no problem with it. It is the declaring something good to be a sin. It is the declaring something not sinful a sin. That I have a huge problem with.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Great Blog! Love the comments.

    Try http://christianbeerconnoisseur.wordpress.com/ for more of the same.

    Drink on (in moderation"

    John

    ReplyDelete
  182. I am so glad you dropped a reference to Sam Adams Summer Ale. Too bad it was just seasonal.

    I drink about twice a year on camping trips. This year I have probably doubled that due to different business trips. So, I guess according to teetotalers, I'm going to hell.

    I recently wrote a blog post about one of my trips that included some of the new beers that I tried. One of my friends wrote back and said, "I didn't know you were a drinker. (For the record, I'm not)."

    I thought it was pretty funny. I read his blog about a day later and he had just volunteered a day for the local Habitat for Humanity (very worth while charity). This is a guy that probably hasn't picked up a hammer too many times in his life, so I was pretty impressed when he told me all that he had done. So, I wrote back saying, "Wow. Building wall supports, using a Sawsall, and carrying lumber. I didn't know you were a carpenter. ;)"

    You see, me having a couple of drinks every now and then makes me a "drinker" as much as hammering a few nails into boards makes him a "carpenter."

    ReplyDelete
  183. Hi!
    i'm on my second glass of wine, which is my "comment glass", so here i am, catching up on google reader and commenting on this post, which i found from your list of 500. (Congrats, by the way! Quite an accomplishment!)

    i did not read all the comments. i understand Christians and alcohol to be a very contraversial and confusing topic.

    My take?

    Jesus is all powerful, right?

    He could have changed the water into purified water.

    That's where i'm at.

    But how should i know? i'm just some quotation mark Christian quotation mark who thinks drinking is ok. :)

    ReplyDelete
  184. Just catching up on some old posts, via the list of 500. I grew up in Birmingham, and the Garage is my favorite bar in town. I have had many great nights and friendly reunions there.

    Great site - keep it up.

    ReplyDelete
  185. This isn't even an issue...I just enjoyed a fine beer (Chimay Blue) brewed and blessed by some monks in Belgium, who would be appalled that a bunch of historically and theologically inept Evangelicals are considering whether or not they should drink in secret (Pharisaical) or follow the model of Jesus and drink the same elixir believed to heal Leprousy (the Jews, while captive in babylon, discovered an alcoholic drink made with Hops, believed to heal a variety of ailments).

    ReplyDelete
  186. Lots of cool comments.

    I'm at a crossroads with this.

    I've been a Christian for over 20 years now and have always been taught and believed that drinking was "of the devil". I work for a christian tv station that is owned and operated out of a church. I've heard preaching from the pulpit about how so and so started drinking, ended up committing adultery and God basically killed them beacause later they drowned on a fishing trip after drinking in the boat. He was made the pefect example of what drinking will do to a christian and how God will judge them. Drinkers are seen as weak or backslidden where I live.

    However, the last few years I've been re-evaluating some of my beliefs. I now have a few beers when I go out to dinner with my dad and even had a beer in a bistro with some non-christian friends for the first time.

    My wife dissaproves and I don't blame her because we both have seen how destructive alcholol can be in our families lives.

    I always felt that if I did something wrong and was not the "perfect" christian witness people around would go to hell because of me.
    I still won't let anyone know because they would be blown away if they found out that "I" drink.

    Wow! what a burden. That's my story. Hope someone can relate.

    ReplyDelete
  187. Check out the Christian band Disciple and their song "I Just Know", it answers alot.

    ReplyDelete