Last weekend my family went to a "Game Ranch." It's hard to describe, but imagine if a rural petting zoo exploded and the animals were free to roam about shaking you down for carrots and peanuts.
It ended up being a blast, but was a weird experience because you walk through the entrance and suddenly there are animals everywhere. Big deer with antlers amble up and nose through your stroller for treats. Rabbits, pigs, donkeys, turkeys, there's a veritable parade of roaming creatures that panhandle as you make your way through a dark forest.
The entire time, my two year old just kept chucking whole carrots at any animal that made eye contact with her. I'm fairly confident the bears, bobcats, mountain lions and coyotes would have grabbed her instead of the vegetables if there was not a cage on the dangerous ones. (By the way, I think the definition of mountain lion hell is living in an enclosure while hundreds of fat, lazy deer roam free and taunt you all day.)
My kids loved it, and I am now a huge fan of that place, but I still had a quiet thought inside that asked, "Is this somewhere my kids should be?" I mean I could probably take a deer in a street fight but my four year old wouldn't stand a chance. Should there be a kid version of this?
I have weird thoughts, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have some of those same ones when I see people bring kids to church. And I didn't realize this was such a hot issue until I flirted with the topic and folks jumped up on the comments. They raised some really valid points and challenged my small minded approach. I have an opinion on it, but thought it might be cool to lay out the pros and cons of bringing kids (3 years +) to big church with you.
Pros:
1. The gift of a shared experience.
Kids get so busy these days with swim practice and soccer games and sleepovers and etc. Going to church together can be a great way to connect and have a shared experience that can guide good discussions the rest of the week as a family. There's definitely a really positive element of family bonding at work here.
2. Great teaching regardless of age.
I would say that more than 70% of the sermons I've heard would not be inappropriate for kids. The subjects they focus on aren't for adults or kids, they're for humans. Love your neighbor. Love God. Love yourself. These topics are not restricted by age. And engaging in them at this age can help create a solid foundation for smart decisions down the road.
3. No kids program.
It's possible your church does not have a thriving child education program. Maybe they are just getting started or you feel like it's too much glitter and glue and too little God. So as an alternative you bring your kids to big church.
Cons:
1. The Bible
It doesn't say anything against this, but does the Bible say we should do it? By asking kids to be adults in our service, aren't we reversing the claim Jesus made for us to be more child like? Maybe we should attend Sunday School? And although Jesus did not preach to separate crowds, I don't remember a single little kid disciple. If unity is so important ,why wasn't one of the disciples a 7 year old named Ricky?
2. The Material
If 70% of the sermons are age appropriate that still means more than 15 times a year, my kid is subjected to something they are not ready for. Does my 4 year old need to hear the intimate ways adultery leaves an impact on the sexual health of a marriage?
3. Sunday School is Geared Toward Them
Church is different, so this isn't a one to one comparison, but rarely do we bring kids into adult situations in other areas of life. We don't always invite them to couple counseling, ask them to join us in the doctor's office for our visit, or take them to work more than one day a year. And Sunday School takes that into account by using the wisdom and skill of decades of growing little hearts for God. My daughters often hear the same truth I did but in a child size version.
I side with those against kids in church, mainly because I am so impressed with how my church does Sunday School. They are just amazing. But I think you can argue both ways. Maybe it's a cultural thing that is how your country does church of this is an extension of your belief in the solid family togetherness of homeschooling. On the other hand, maybe church is a communal activity and you have to be cognizant of how your kids are impacting the people around you.
Tough to say, but I'd love to hear your thoughts. I told you mine. But if you don't want to, no sweat. I'll just have to tell God later when I talk to him, "We talked more about Christians and liquor, than we did kids. You were right God, we love booze."
We have phenominal children's ministry at our church (also in the ATL) along with really great student ministries. I think sometimes, though, parents are under the assumption that it is the church's resposibility to disciple their kids and teach them about the Lord...which it is, but not solely. That lies with the parent.
ReplyDeleteAnd, the parent needs a place where they can be focused on what they are being fed...not whether or not they have enough cheerios and juice to keep their preschooler quiet through the message.
If they're looking for a spiritual family time, create it at home...talk about the sermon after church. Raising your children to know and love the Lord is a little more important than swim team and soccer practice. Priorities, dude.
We go to a church that has a great kids program, until June when teh leaders take a break. Then it's time for kiddie bulletins and the gentle hum of parents doing "power shushing" all over the sanctuary. My 14 year old is legally bored by the end of the meet and greet, so he takes the 2 younger boys out "for water". Which takes the exact same time as the sermon. He really is a good big brother. My 17 year old daughter stays in church, but I really wonder where my 17 year old daughter's brain goes during church. "is there anyone hot to look at today?? Let me scan the visitor collection and see." Let you see the teeny little "hot-dar" scanning device pop up from her perfectly done hair and it scans the crowd.It really is cool when it locks on to a hot young visitor because she instantly looks spiritual and murmurs, "ah yes, Pastor, like,TOTALLY amen to that awesome exegetical point".
ReplyDeleteWe can't be less amazing than our guests, can we?
I just pass notes to my other 40-ish mom friends and play Hangman. Then I spend 45 minutes fighting the urge to lay down. I wish there was a "sofa church". The offering would be HUGE!!
Interesting points on both sides. Yet I still come down in favor of taking the child to church. The pros outweigh the cons. And you, parent, get the opportunity to answer the child's questions should she raise any.
ReplyDeleteVaya con Dios.
I could go both ways. I would now side with having my child in children's church because my new church has an awesome program that teaches her so much. But the last church we attended didn't. They had a program, but my daughter felt isolated and alienated. She was not part of the 'in' crowd and hated to go. In order to curb the fighting I had her attended 'big' church with me. She is 10 and I figured that she understood most of what was going on.
ReplyDeleteBut, now that she is in another program, I see a complete change in her - she wants to read the Bible, learn her memory verses. That shows you the power of a good program.
Oh, look...more murky water. The family-integrated church movement is built atop the notion that not only should your children be seated next to you in big church, but that y'all should have skipped Sunday school in the first place. There is a lot of turning little children into little adults by making toddlers sit still and be quiet.
ReplyDeleteHaving been privy to this type of worship, I prefer the one where they go to their class and run amuck and hear lessons taught on their level instead of getting 6 spankings during the course of the day because as a parent, I put them in a situation they were ill-equipped to handle.
There will be plenty of time for me to utilize my ninja pinch before they graduate at 15 from Ninja Homeschool.
Why don't families choose to do both? church then Sunday school? it makes for a longer morning, but isn't the investment worth it?
ReplyDeleteI don't have kids yet, so that may discredit my opinion a bit, which is ok. But I do work at a church whose children's ministry director encourages parents to bring their kids to worship with them. (Sunday school is a big deal for kids and adults at the church where I work.)
ReplyDeleteThe idea behind that was that parents get an opportunity to teach their kids how to worship. That didn't ring true with me, because it seems like, then, we'd just be raising another generation of kids who think worship has everything to do with songs we like, done in our style, on Sunday mornings for one hour and nothing to do with the days between Sundays. But I think the Bible speaks against that and that TRUE worship is taught as a part of a lifestyle of devotion.
I agree that if a church is tackling tough, adult issues, then that environment will not always be appropriate for children. And I think the church NEEDS to tackle those issues.
I'd rather not have children in big church.
ReplyDeleteI go alone and have one child who needs Children's Church. I need Children's Church - otherwise, I am kid-wrestling through the entire sermon or trying to think up quiet ways to entertain my little one, which means I've missed out on 93% of the sermon anyway.
I am fairly new to the church scene and I want to be able to concentrate on the sermon and learn.
No children in big church, please.
Love your blogs!
There's also another side to that. Over the summer my Church tend towards doing a run of about 6 weeks of "all-age services" to give the children's leaders a break. This is fair enough, the youth and children's leaders DO need a break. But then the rest of the 'adult' Church now have to sit through many services without a substance filled sermon (because it's watered down to be kid friendly) and with lots of kid gimicks. Once in a while that works fine but I have to admit I'm quite happy I'm missing at least 2 all-age services this summer. Very hard to find a balance though.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I love the line "growing little hearts for God". Now THAT is something we should all be doing, in the little ones, and in ourselves.
I teach the large group for our 2nd through 4th grade once a month and I truly feel that some churches work so hard to make their children's ministry doable for parents and kids (at least ours does) that I think it's a disservice to kids if they aren't able to go. I don't understand the benefits of having the child in adult church if they aren't being spiritually fed elsewhere. ***Disclaimer - I don't have kids, so I am speaking only from my teaching standpoint and working with students in an elementary setting as well.
ReplyDeleteDuring one of our services, our pastor was hypothetically asking questions...and a little child spat out a loud NO in the middle of them. He didn't miss a beat and in a humorous way said...that's why we have a children's ministry. It was done in fun and I wish I could have been there...I was downstairs teaching.
I think that kids should be in church with their parents. I have seen kids get so hooked on "kids church" that when they get older they can hardly sit through a real sermon. I mean, you let them go and color and hear a bible story for the length of the sermon, then when they get too old to be in the kid's program, you just yank them out and expect them to be able to sit through the sermon and pay attention?
ReplyDeleteNo, thanks. I don't want to deal with that one.
Good topic! At our church, we have lots and lots of families who practice what we call "family worship" and bring their kids to big church with them. They also, though, have family worship time at home in the evenings, so they're practicing the sitting still thing all week. I'm kind of torn, because our nursery is extremely limited in available space (old downtown church and landlocked) and our church has lots of quiverful families, so no end to the baby boom; I'd like to have my kids in church with me because of the overcrowding in the nurseries/pre-K SS classes and so that they could participate (also, my 2 year-old is one of the crying kids in SS). But on the other hand, isn't the whole point of nurseries and children's church so the parents can worship unhindered? I can't really praise and focus on the sermon when I'm giving my toddler the stinkeye.
ReplyDeletePS - did you go to Yellow River Game Ranch in Lilburn? We used to go there all the time when I was a kid. When I was three I ran up to a deer and threw my arms around its neck - I think my mom had a minor stroke.
This is a "hot button" issue in my church, and as the children's pastor, I'm right in the middle of it!
ReplyDeleteMy take on it is this (and no, it's not just a "job security" issue - I think God is big enough to find something for me to do to serve him even if kids' church is completely wiped off the map. He's just that big!):
Why do we, as adults, go to church? Do we go to church so that we can learn to behave in church? Do we go because it's some sort of exercise in "family togetherness"? Is it a social club - a place to see and be seen?
Not according to my Bible! We go to church to worship with other believers - to encourage and to be encouraged. To meet with God. And yes, it is possible to meet with God anywhere - I had a powerful encounter with him once in college while listening to Nine Inch Nails.
Our kids need the same thing.
While it's all well and good to promote the "family integrated" model, I think we need to ask ourselves why. Do we really want what's best for our kids spiritually? Most of the kids in my church whose parents require the family to sit together in "big church" are mentally checked out. They stand there, eyes glazed over, during praise and worship. During the sermon, they (like all of us!) find their ways to NOT pay attention.
These same kids, when in kids' church, fully participated. And I don't spend the entire time playing games and doing arts and crafts, either. We have a REAL service, just geared toward a kid's level of learning.
To me, kids' ministry is not about "babysitting the kids so their parents can attend church." It's about ministering to kids.
I've never gone to church where there was an option for what to do with the children during the church service. There MIGHT have been a nursery when I was a little child, but that's the only time I can (vaguely) recall not going to service with my parents. Sometimes there is a childrens sermon during the regular service. But you go to the service- young or old. I've never even belonged to a church that had a cry room.
ReplyDeleteTake your children to church. If they misbehave to the point of distracting others from the service, then take them out to the narthex. What's the point of taking your family to church if you aren't going to go as a family?
I don't know how "Children's Church" works at all your churches, but at every church I've ever attended, children older than nursery age go to big church, then are dismissed right before the sermon. This seems like a good idea to me, because I think children SHOULD be able to learn to participate appropriately in big church, but they only have to do it for a shorter time, say half an hour, and then they get a kid-focused lesson in children's church.
ReplyDeleteAlso, at my church, Sunday School is for both children and adults, and often the really adult hard-hitting subject matter is something for teaching/discussion in an adult class, not for the sermon. I mean, sermons should be challenging, sure, but adultery might be a better subject for a bible study class.
I refuse to put my kids in the Children's Church program at my church. I keep both my kids in "big church" through the whole service and they're 1 and half and 3 years old. I sit on the outside edge next to the aisle and leave with one or both during service to listen from the lobby if events warrant. The advantage to starting this early is that my elder child is already able to stay quiet and behave all the way through the service and the 18 month old is only leaving every other week or once every three.
ReplyDeleteChildren's programs that substitute for regular services do your kids the disservice of not inculcating the seriousness of God. God is joyful, but the kids' program teaches implicitly that church should always be fun, easy and something that never troubles your spirit. What happens when problems come, when you have to listen to a sermon that makes you uncomfortable because it hits close to home? What happens when your comfortable, unthinking theology is challenged by the doctrine coming from the pulpit?
I know, I know, we're talking about 5 year olds and they aren't going to pick up on that in "big church" anyway, but helping them understand that being quiet and respectful in church even when they don't feel so inclined will better encourage the attitudes needed to help their walk later on in life.
I favor keeping the family together at church as much as possible, but I understand the need for Sunday School as well. (Perhaps we shouldn't bind another's conscience where Scripture hasn't explicitly spoken.) However, I will note that this discussion on kids in worship, as most discussions on worship, focus on what I am getting out of the service--or what my kids get out of the service. Will this inconvenience me? Will it be boring? Is it the music I/they like? I think moving beyond these questions to issues like, "how should I raise my kids to love Jesus and love church?" will better guide us as parents in figuring out what to do with our kids.
ReplyDeleteThis past Sunday I would have voted to send kids out of the service. THe people in front of me had their two year old that normally goes to an age appropriate program during the service. But on Sunday, he was with Mom and Dad, alternately wrapped around one of them so he was facing back, starting at me. For an hour. Staring. Not too uncomfortable.
ReplyDeleteI don't have children yet, either. And from my experience growing up in a small church, I didn't really have a children's church. I had to sit upstairs in the sanctuary with the adults and listen to the sermons. Most of that time however was spend taking naps on my aunt's lap and looking through her purse or my mom's purse or coloring beside the pastor's wife. I was pretty easily amused as a child and didn't need much of the ninja pinching from my mom. I see and understand both sides of the situation, though. Even though I was easily amused with coloring and napping, I still heard some pretty deep and scarry things that weren't kid friendly. At one point I was so scared about going to hell from a message, I finally told my mom about it and she reassurred me that I misinterpreted the message. So, two sides of the coin, and both are valid, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI don't know that having ones child sit through 'adult' church is really quality family time. Take advantage of the childrens program at your church and let them learn about God through age-appropriate teaching.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention that your child, who is squirming uncontrollably and giving 'shout outs' because they are bored out of their mind is a total distraction not just to those in the vicinity but everyone who can hear them (you think the pastor isn't shooting daggars out of his eyes at you?). Plus, your kid is ticked because they aren't able to partake in the fish cracker snack like everyone else their age. Have some compassion on those of us who have a hard enough time focusing for 30 minutes on the sermon (and that's on a good day) without distractions and take your child to Sunday school, please.
As an educator I have to say that I come down on the side of having children in their own learning environment. Children learn in so many ways not all children can learn effectively about Christ in a sermon setting. They need to be active, touching, listening to it in so many ways or maybe they won't get it. Think about the ways we have kids learning at home and in school - it should be duplicated in a church situation. How many kids do you know like to sit and listen to their parents lecture them at home? Why would they want that at church? You have to be matured a bit to get to that point. I grew up listening to sermons - oh excuse me I never listened. I colored and played with my mom's fingernails. I didn't enjoy church. I loved VBS b/c it was fun, but church was fun only 1 week of a year. I don't believe in boring kids at church, making it a painful experience for them. They should WANT to go to church and have a good time so they know that Christianity is fun. Also having kids in church can REALLY distract the preacher if they are making noise.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it should be a huge "arguement", I believe it should be about personal preference. If a parent doesn't want to deal with their young screaming child, while they are trying to listen to the sermon, fine. On the other hand, if a parent believes that teaching their children to sit still and listen quietly to God's word is an important part of learning about God, then great!
ReplyDeleteI personally side with the "sitting still" version. I have 14 nieces and nephews, and all of my sisters and brother practice bringing their kids in to "big church" with them. At first it was a little rocky, two year olds being two year olds, but now they sit quietly and listen, and you'd be surprised how much they do absorb and talk about later in the week. They have a greater capacity for learning than many people give them credit for.
For the "adult situations" sermons, usually the pastor will give a warning to the parents, so they can choose to send their child to sunday school if they prefer.
When I was young, about 12 or so, I didn't want to go to Youth Sunday School. The whole time was spent sitting around gossiping, while the cool kids flirted with each other. I wanted to learn about God, so I went in to the adult church. There were a lot of people in church that were angry at my parents for letting me, as if I was doing something wrong, wanting to learn about God on Sunday instead of talking about who likes who and who should never have bought those pants, they are way too tight for her!
That is my opinion. You may not like me someday, when I cart my screaming youngin's into the service, and force them to stay with me and listen to the sermon. Have a little patience, and they will become more quiet after some time.
I grew up going to a church with a children's program and it was great. We sang a lot of crazy songs and learned a lot of bible stories. I've attended churches with no options for children and most of the kids just tune out during the sermon, at best coloring in their programs, at worse fiddling around with a Gameboy (or whatever the kids fiddle with these days).
ReplyDeleteI hope your first con was a joke because it seemed really far-reaching to me. Just because the Bible doesn't expressly tell you to do something doesn't mean that it's not to be done. Aside from that, I am in cahoots with you 100%. Small children (under 8-10) don't have the attention span/educational background necessary to listen to pastors talk about "exegetical analyses" and the "negative consequences of humanity's inherant sinful nature." Maybe the overall topics aren't over their heads, but most of the language is.
ReplyDeleteErgun Caner, a great Muslim-turned-Christian preacher (Are they going to get a post? We love us some formerly-Muslim pastors!), has said that he hates it when people bring small children and babies to services because Satan uses them to keep people from hearing God. There's a reason some kid always starts bawling or screaming about running out of Cheerios just as the pastor is giving the alter call. Any time that happens in Caner's church, he kindly points out to the parent (in the middle of service) that there is free child care provided and they might want to consider utilizing it.
In most churches I've been to, the children's director and the head pastor teach on the same concept each week (i.e. obeying God's call in big church, Jonah in Sunday school). This way, you can still talk to your kids about the sermon by asking them questions about what they learned and then giving them details from the sermon that you can tailor to meet their level.
In short, my kid goes to children's church, and I wish yours (you universal, not you, Jon Acuff) would too.
k.d. - A lot of churches offer a special youth service for preteens/teens. Basically, the youth group meets on Sunday mornings during service, and they have their own worship & sermon. It's only slightly shorter than the real service, so it's a good transition for those ages.
ReplyDeletewe go to an old school church that still has Sunday evening services-- with no kids' programs. So we pack up our three year old and five year old boys every Sunday night and sit one on either side of us (divide and conquer) and expect them to sit quietly through the service.
ReplyDeleteI know they're not learning much except how to color quietly at this point, but is that so wrong? I work in a daycare and too many kids are just incapable of sitting still and shutting up unless they have the TV on. There's something to be said for teaching your kids early to be still. Self-discipline is a beautiful thing. :)
I agree with the person that said the church is not solely responsible for discipling your children. It needs to be done during the entire process of parenting. All week long.
ReplyDeleteI used to teach in children's ministry at our church. And I don't see any valid reason to not let your child go to class, while you go to "big church". Kids are a distraction to the parent when sitting in the main sanctuary to the parent, AS WELL AS other people around them, including visitors, yo.
All of your points are great, Jonny.
Miss Hannah -
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. My first comment was not meant as a joke, not entirely anyway. And I agree, just because the Bible doesn't tell you to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. To the question of it being far reaching, I disagree. The subject of the post is children. I asked a question about children using one of the most widely referred to Bible passages about children. I think it's an interesting question to ask, does encouraging our children to be more adult, and learn how to sit through a "real service," fulfill Jesus' desire that we all be more childlike?
Jon
Oh, and I had to laugh at the person with that 17 y.o. daughter.
ReplyDelete"hot-dar' scanning device" LOL
I'll bite. I have 8 kiddos, all of whom have been to services with me at various times. I was also raised in a church where everyone went to SS and then everyone went to service, there was no SS during service. I learned a lot in that situation.
ReplyDeleteWe don't force our kids to go to either. Both churches we have been to recently offer active and popular children's programs, the deficit does not lie there. But sometimes our children still desire to be with us. We have very strict guidelines for being in service with us, as we don't want to disrupt others, but it's their choice. Our older children (10 and 12)run into a problem when the children service is not meeting their needs. We do bible reading and worship at home too, so they would really like a time to connect with other believers. But between the band, the games, the skits and all else, there is very little time to think and discuss. Don't get me wrong, my boys love love to run jump giggle tag and be crazy, but they do believe there may be a time at church for thoughtful reflection too.
My main concern with the whole discussion is an all or nothing mindset. Children can and should be able to sit in a service if that meets the families needs, but they should also be able to go SS and not be inundated with loud music and noise constantly.
I also find it interesting that there are complaints on both sides of "expecting them to be little adults" and the noise and disruption being annoying, so our solution is to kick them out of the sanctuary. Where is wonderful mix of grace and discipline that is so important in our relationship with Christ? Why are children excluded from that? I personally could use a bit more fun in my sermons, more moving around, maybe a coloring sheet and some glitter. And my children benefit from seeing my husband and I in corporate worship, listening and learning.
I also worry that we are giving our children the message that if it's not entertaining or if they have to have to work to receive learning, they don't have to do it. I'm not asking for an class on the 5 points of Calvinism, but something challenging would be nice.
And, although I know you were joking, Jesus not having a child disciple as an reason for children's church doesn't work. Discipleship and sermons are two very different things. Children did come and listen to his sermons frequently, and when the disciples tried to keep them back, Jesus reprimanded them. There was no glitter and goldfish for thousands of years and yet children still learned about their faith.
All that said, I still thought your "bounce" vacation bible school sounded fabulous and would sign my kids and myself up immediately.
I went to that game ranch when I was pregnant with my second child. It made me so sick! I don't think I will ever be able to go back...and it was quite scary to have all those animals just wandering around....maybe not so much scary as eerie. ewwww..
ReplyDeleteI am not completely one way or the other on this one. Well...for babies I definitely think they should be in a nursery when they hit the restless stage (5 months or so) and then up until they are about 4, they can't really sit still very long. But if they can sit still and listen then let them come! My daughter prefers the worship in the "big church" better than the loud thumping music in the youth room....just different personalities of children will enjoy different things.
So many churches have "contemporary" services, or "traditional" services...just so suit all the personalities of the adults even, so what about the kids?? Are we to assume they all want to do a craft and listen to Christian rock music?
Here are my two cents...and I'm not even going to breach the topic of how little I would learn in a service where my 2-1/2 year old was present. Even if he was well behaved, I would be focused on what he's doing (or not doing) instead of worshipping...it's part of mommyhood I'm told.
ReplyDeleteI love my church's children's program. It is not just a playtime while mom and dad go to church. They learn on a level that they can understand. Just this last weekend, my 2-1/2 year old told me that he was going to build a boat with hammer and nails. Straight from Noah's ark, which they have been studying. He wouldn't have learned that in a "big church" sermon on the same story.
My thoughts are this...children should be able to hold on to their innocence as long as possible. I am all for teaching them on how to be a responsible adult, but making them grow up too fast is not my idea of fun. I remember being bored out of my mind in church as a small child. I remember writing notes and thinking about things I shouldn't while I was a teenager in church. Had I felt the pastor was talking to me about something relavent in my life, I might have listened, but at those times I did not. I probably missed a lot of good sermons and I was a "good kid who listened" usually.
Part of what I like about what I am beginning to see as a real relationship with God is that He meets us where we are. He doesn't call us to do things we aren't equipped for. He loves us and cherishes each moment we are loving Him. I never felt like I was worshipping God as a child, but just doing as I was told by my mom. The worship was felt and performed when I was at funcitons that were geared toward the age I was at the time (VBS, youth camps, etc).
And a note on what Bob said above, I have no problem with acknowledging that our relationship with God is serious. However, I grew up thinking that God was ALL about serious and that was frankly discouraging. Now that I know that God likes fun when it's appopriate, I have no problem incorporating that into my worship. Kids will learn that life is hard and serious. I don't see the need to open this up to them at an age when their innocence and naivette should be preserved.
I understand that not all church have full children's program or even one at all (which is like the church I grew up in), and there is sometimes no option. With that being said though...
Jesus said that we should all come to Him like little children. It seems like we're trying to make the children come to Him like we do.
I have some friends with five young boys. During the service, their church only offered basically babysitting, and they didn't want to teach the boys that that was what church was about. So they didn't take each of their kids to church until they were able to sit still with them and pay attention. And they didn't do it from a you-have-to-be-quiet-in-church perspective, but from what it is really about. And I've got to say - these are some amazingly smart and respectful kids!
ReplyDeleteI think it would depend on the maturity of the kid. When I was little, my parents and grandparents took me to big church all the time, and often I would read a book. My brother would color. What is the point of having the kid in church if they won't (or aren't capable of) paying attention? Often, I think, they can be kind of distracting to everyone else listening to the sermon. When I have kids of my own, unless it's a special occasion like the baptism of someone we know, I think I would have them stay in a kids program. They're more likely to learn and grow at a service catered to them rather than to us.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that it's a gradual age thing. My 2-year-old spends both the Sunday School hour and church in the toddler pen where she can freely sing "The B-I-B-L-E" and "The Wheels on the Bus" mixed in with frequent bathroom breaks. I think my 2-year-old is delightful, but I'm guessing most people don't want to spend their 1 hour of corporate worship time with her.
ReplyDeleteHowever, my 5-year-old attends SS, then sits through the church service up until the sermon, when all the kids ages 4-9 go to children's church. I don't know many kids who can sit through a 40-minute sermon, appropriate topic or not, because as an adult it takes dedicated concentration.
And ditto to all the people who said their attention is then not on the service either, it's on wrangling their kid...
Oops. And I feel the need to clarify that a benefit of going to an enormous church is that not only do the kids have Sunday school, with the coloring and the crafts and sing-a-longs, there are real services similar to ours, as well. Same goes for middle schoolers and high schoolers. So they are more likely to tolerate the change to "big church" when they get older.
ReplyDeletehmmm....hard choice. As a teenager it's really a struggle to choose where kids should be.
ReplyDeleteWe have an amazing children's ministry that works extremely hard to both instill the love of God in younger children and to prepare them for moving up into the main service in 6th grade. After 6th grade many of our youth choose to serve in our children's ministry, so there's plenty of time for younger kids to learn how to sit still.
On the other hand though, there's nothing more amusing than watching little children run down the aisle in the main service (especially our pastor's son--he's 4). Also when I was younger and had to go to "big church" as we called it, all I did was color. I don't remember a single message from a main service until I was 13.
My personal opinion is if there is a strong program for children then send them there. If not, then take them into service--there's probably going to be a lot of other kids there. Bring them cheerios and crayons.
Great topic!
ReplyDeleteI view this as more of a cultural issue than a church issue. I certainly agree that there is a danger of expecting too much from children - treating them like miniature adults. However, I don't think we (collectively and generally as a country) err on that side! Somehow we've come to a place where children are catered to almost constantly. From greasy kid's menus to pulling out the handheld gameboy whenever we sit down, children expect to be entertained.
Ironically, most parents view sports as somehow different. Instead of allowing kids to be kids (open play) they're enrolled in all sorts of adult-directed classes and teams.
Like anything, it's balancing the children's capability with our expectation. Imaginative play/learning is important, as is learning to sit quietly and just be bored.
When it comes to church, there are 2 extremes that need to be avoided. The parents who expect their kids to join them mistakenly using the actual service to teach them how to sit quietly. Parents who send their kids to Sunday school mistakingly assuming they need things like cartoons and games to learn anything.
Now I'm going to read other's comments...
My husband is also a children's ministry director...so I'm a bit biased. But I think as long as age appropriate teaching is happening in an environment designed to disciple children, then parents should have that option. I agree with Georgia in that I don't think we should put kids in situations they are ill equipped to handle.
ReplyDeleteI also think there is a fine line here. In the evangelical church we have taken on the world's view of children (a burden) and not God's view (a blessing). So, while many churches want to minister to children simply to get them out of "big church", I think we need to be careful to remain pro-family and pro-child. A children's ministry built around that ideal (getting them out of "big church") is seriously lacking...I assure you.
I certainly wouldn't attend a church where a pastor called out people with noisy children. I guess he's never read Matthew 18.
[quote]does encouraging our children to be more adult, and learn how to sit through a "real service," fulfill Jesus' desire that we all be more childlike?[end quote]
ReplyDeleteIf we want fulfill Jesus' words to become more childlike, we wouldn't send them away, we'd welcome them and their distractions. Let them come! When Jesus preached, the children were there, not off in mini-church with Peter and James.
We've created a culture where the word "children" = "distraction". Look how many times the word was used in a few short comments. Let the Church lead the way in saying, "We agree with God: Children are a blessing, and we welcome them!" It's not the children who need to be ushered out; it's the be-quiet-and-watch-the-show culture that needs to go.
Regarding inappropriate content. We homeschool our children and keep them from public sex ed. That said, we read the Bible straight up. We don't skip naked Noah. We warn them about adultary because the Bible does. How can it be OK to send your child to school, and at the same time, keep them from church because of the inappropriate content? Either that logic is flawed or the pastor is off the rails in his content.
Jon, I affirm your work all the time with a lot of link love, but I hope you rethink this one.
If all of life is worship, and it is, then there is no room for children (ever) if they are distractions from getting serious with God. I have a passel of kids, and I used to think that they slowed me down. I wanted to do something big for God. What I found God required of me is to be faithful in the little things before me--accepting my children as my calling and not something to get out of the way so I could "use my gifts." Sending them to children's church is OK (in some cases); I'm not a FIC groupie. What I hope people rethink is the general attitude of children as things to deal with, to hush, etc.
While I've gotcha on the line, Jon, if you haven't already done it, how about "SCL: Preaching while praying"? My husband preached a whole nuther sermon in his prayer the other night.
Oooo, and have you mentioned sharing a "prayer request" as a way to share info/gossip?
SCL: Bringing food to any crisis or celebration
SCL: Pastor appreciation MONTH
this issue like others mentioned on this blog need to be handled w/ grace and patience toward others. we keep all 5 of our kids in service (including 1 yr old), even though we have a "worship training" time available to us. let's be honest, they aren't training the kids to worship, they are training them to NOT be in worship. while we occasionally deal w/ discipline issues, the early training meant that rarely do we get up during service, and we almost always hear the entire sermon. and for those who do not choose to keep your kids in service, ok, but to actually be so ridiculous as to say that kids should NOT be there is mind-boggling to me! that smacks of self-centeredness to me! as in, "you'd better not distract me while I'm trying to worship, darnit!" what about "Let the little children come to me"? we have chosen not to deny our children one of the means of grace in their lives: the preaching of the word. and I love the other comment about family-integrated folks thinking Sunday School is forbidden -- made me laugh, our kids do have their own classes to attend, and then we worship as a family. and remember folks, this idea of "big church" is a modern one. it is corporate worship for the church, and as members of the covenant, my children hold the same position as valid worshippers as you do.
ReplyDeleteThe comment about the 17 year old daughter is hilarious. When I was a 17 year old boy, I hoped/wished the 17 year old girls were noticing me like that but always they seemed totally aloof and unaware of my presence and into the service. There must be an additional radar that tells them when the guy is about to notice that they are noticing, and makes them look straight ahead and act holy.
ReplyDeleteI think the post kind of shortchanges the "shared experience" point on the "pro" side of things. It's not just a parent-child shared experience (the way you set that up makes it sound kind of inwardly self-focused for the parent as if the parent was hungry for more time w/ his/her kids). For the child it can be an opportunity to experience community w/ the whole body of believers, saying "yes you are a part of this" rather than "no, you are a separate species from us and maybe some day you will be a part of this but right now you aren't." The whole concept of Christian community seems to pull me toward including all people of all ages and stages of life together as often as possible, rather than segregating them as much as possible so they are only around people really similar to themselves.
As a happy medium I like the idea of having the kids in church for the first part of the service - some singing and a prayer at least, before letting them go. B/C in spite of my sympathies on some of the "pro" points I think the "cons" end up outweighing them when the service gets long, the sermon is geared at an attention span greater than that of the kids', etc.
I am a full time Presbyterian Minister and have two daughters ages three and seven. This is NOT an easy question to answer-thanks for bringing it up here.
ReplyDeleteI think having children in worship doesn't encourage them to be more adult-it encourages us adults to be more child like.
For me it's not about getting children to be quiet-its about getting adults able to handle it when children act as children act. Now I'm not advocating that we allow little Johnnie to sprint up and down the aisles with his Transformer yelling "Death the the Decepticons!"-that's a bit much.
But a child responding to my questions during a sermon-thta's a compliment that they're listening. If a child is screaming their head off-I think they should be taken out if they can't be quiet as well. We have a nursery for that reason. We leave the choice to the parents in terms of whether to bring them to worship or send them to children's church.
We have a children's sermon every Sunday and then the children go either to Children's church or back to sit with parents.
The workers in a smaller church (like ours-about 200 members) get tired of not being able to attend worship-my wife-the pastor's wife (who most closely fits the type of pastor's wife who you can't get to know from John's categories) is nearly always watching the children during children's church.
I also know that the parents say they'd like to have the hour to worship and not wrestle the children through worship-so there are many sides to the issue.
One thing we did at one church I pastored was have a "cry room" where the parent could take the child to cry if they needed to do so-and there was a speaker there so they could participate in worship-it was just outside the sanctuary so it wasn't COMPLETELY removed from the worship experience.
Good post John-thanks for bringing it up.
P.S. If you can take a deer in a street fight then you're some kind of bada#% I swear to God you are.
D
the church i attend has a completely separate kids program. they have their own worship and teaching. i grew up in a church where aside from a nursery, the kids were in the service. and having the privilege to teach the kindergarten class...or "small group", i see a lot of things i don't like with having it separate.
ReplyDeleteyou have a disconnect within the family. most kids come back week after week saying their parents didn't engage them at all on spiritual matters. the kids don't get to see their parents (their heroes in many cases) worship Jesus.
until my church decides to do it differently (probably never) i'll make the most of the opportunity and serve the kids.
and for all those screaming or unruly kids, they need to experience more of the "stop that" hand grab discipline.
I'm a fan of taking the kids to "kids church", but we have a great kids program too. I like being able, for just one and a half hours, to focus on me and God and not weather the kids need something to draw on, or go to the bathroom or if they are throwing paper at the person in front of us. I feel like the rest of my life focuses so much on the kids that being able to take them to kids church gives me a chance to focus on something else. Also, I feel like they will get more out of kids church. It's geared toward how they learn and think as opposed to how adults learn and think. Not to mention, when I was a kid, I was so bored in big church all I did was sleep.
ReplyDeleteI don't have kids yet, either, but I appreciate the way my church handles this - we're Anglican, and the service can be long (2 hrs), but it's also broken up kind of nicely into sections. The kids (all ages) stay with us for worship, then we pray for the kids as a congregation and send them down to kids' church. We then have confession, readings & sermon without them, and they come back after the sermon. And then they're with us for communion (which is every week), announcements and closing songs & prayers.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to work well for the families - the kids on the whole seem to love kids' program, and we also get a chance to worship & fellowship with the whole family, which I think is important for us as a congregation.
Our church has great programs for kids on Sunday Mornings and my kids attend them. In the evenings there is no program for kids and so my children sit with us in church for the evening service. I feel that this is important because they are learning to sit in church and yet since our evening service is not as well attended as our morning service they are not disrupting as many people as they would be during the morning. I get to focus on God and His Word in the morning service without interruption which strengthens my walk, and since my pastor often does cool things and interactive stuff in the evening service my children are learning the importance of communal worship in the evenings.
ReplyDeleteSolution for those who are offended, I mean distracted by kids in church: sit in the front row. :)
ReplyDeleteAbby, who (along with my dh) take our 10 & 6.5 yo dd with us to "big" church 1st service, then we teach 2nd service while our kids are in their appropriate classes.
Biblically speaking, if you aren't a dispensationalist at least, the funamental unit of society is the family. The family is, always has been, and always will be the place where God expects children to learn about Him. Taking children into church is far more biblical than sending them off to a children's ministry. Unfortunately, too many people attend church in order to "be fed" because "it's all about me". They "need a break from my kids" or "don't want to be distracted by them". Instead of celebrating the little children as equal members of God's family, we marginalize them and push them out of our churches. Shame on us.
ReplyDeleteWe have the children in church for the music, communion, and offering parts of the service. Then they leave for the message. It seem to give us the best of both worlds. Our kids get the intergenerational aspect of church, but they also get a lesson that is for their age.
ReplyDeleteNot only is a kids program a good thing to take advantage of, I often find it distracting when there are young children around me in church. This sunday I had 3 younger children who were in and out of the row all throughout the sermon and were told often to be quiet, or to stop doing something. It was incrediably distracting and I found it really difficult to pay attention to a wondeful sermon. If you can't contol your children then you should'nt bring them upstairs with you.
ReplyDeleteRight off the bat, we have a hybrid model - all children, except nursery age, are present for praise and worship. At the conclusion of praise and worship, the elders, deacons, and their spouses come forward and pray over the children, who are then dismissed to children's ministry.
ReplyDeleteI firmly believe children should be taught at their grade/age appropriate level. If your church's children's ministry is all fun and game time, you're doing it wrong. Our program includes fun stuff, but also some pretty indepth Bible teaching - and takes a child completely through the Bible in 5 years.
I wonder if we would take our preschooler, first or second grader to a college classroom lecture hall and expect them to sit quietly and learn? Sounds kind of ridiculous to me...
i serve in Waumba Land at Buckhead Church w/the 4's...it's amazing that these kids already know that God made them, God loves them and Jesus wants to be their friend. the Bible is explained to them on their level. I do get a little upset when babies cry during service, but understand...i get more upset when cell phones go off or i catch people texting during the sermon....that's another topic though...you should write on that one
ReplyDeletep.s. i was at barnes & noble yesterday in the bible section and saw a bible kit - which included a magnifying bookmark, colored pencils to underline in your bible and something else, i can't remember...but it was hilarious
I think its a great idea to take your child to church. When I was a kid, i hated going to church.I never knew what was going on, I was tired, hungry, and 100% of the time bored. But my parents loved me enough to drag me kicking and screaming every Sunday, for a while. I heard a statistic in a religion class in college that a person is something like 50% more likely to attand church as an adult if they went as a child. Now, when I was about 8 yrs old, we stopped going to church as a family. When I turned 18, I started going again on my own. Thats when I truly became a Christian and gave my life to Christ.
ReplyDeleteI'm shocked that most of the responses are FOR bringing children into the main service. My church has a great children's program, and I have a 3 year old. with that said:
ReplyDeleteThe real issue here is when a non-believer is in the service and is distracted by kids making noise or squirming around. The less distractions the better and children are a huge distraction.
That's the heart of this issue, are we trying to offer the best environment possible with the least distractions to bring people to Christ, or do we think having our kids in the service with us is more important? I don't think any of the arguments for bringing them into the service outweigh the possibility of letting one lost person slip by because a baby was crying.
Even though our church is small, we have an excellent children's church program. They have a song service with popular, upbeat Christian rock songs; a "sermon" from the youth minister; a discussion time; and an invitation. All this takes place AFTER the kids have watched and participated in the song service, offering, and communion on "big church." Nearly every kid who has been saved in our church first made their decision with Pastor Jeff during children's worship.
ReplyDeleteWe also have Family Day every six weeks, where the kids stay in the sanctuary for the whole service and families sit together. The special music is kid-focused (usually the puppet team), and the youth drama team also does a couple of skits. We were all a little nervous about it at first, because we thought some of the younger ones may be disruptive, but it works amazingly well.
I'm kind of surprised that more people didn't bring up the fact that years ago..there was no such thing as children's church..and people were more strict about demanding that their children behave in church...it was not a big issue most of the time..
ReplyDeleteIn my own family..my grandmother would never have allowed me to sleep during church or disrupt the service, period.
If children can stay awake for video games and other activities ..then I think its a good idea to teach them to respect and be reverent toward God's house..whether they are able to understand what is being said or not.
Sadly..I feel like this is just another way we are letting children determine our life for us..rather than teaching them that some things in life just ARE the way they are. All of life is not fun and games...some of life is serious and holy..and no child is too young to begin to learn and understand that ....
You forgot a pro point... "having a personal heater."
ReplyDeleteI do not have any children, but having a 5 year old turned around backwards in the pew in front of me and starting at me during the entire sermon is a little disconcerting.
I personally enjoy going to children's church myself. I often hear simple yet deeply profound truths that affect my everyday life. We just finished a unit on servant leadership that changed the way I do life. Simple truths, but powerful application.
ReplyDeleteAnd as a single mom with a son who is struggling, I love having options. I love that there are SS teachers/children's church leaders who can pour into his life and love on him every week. I also love that I can take him with if that is what is needed that particular week.
I'm a huge fan of children's programs, because in addition to giving kids instruction that is on their level, it gives kids a chance to interact with other children and build friendships that are based on seeking to know God. Also, I'm an adult, and a lot of the time, "big church" is boring. And I don't mean "boring for kiddos," I mean straight up boring. There are times when I'm pretty sure that no one is really that engaged. Maybe we as "big church" could learn something from kids' programs and incorporate more hands-on learning, more discussion, more interaction, and more creative ways to know God than "sit and listen." Just a thought. (ps, adult ed at my church is virtually non-existent. About two classes are offered a year and are video series.)
ReplyDeleteIt depends on the church. The church I grew up in....No Way. Way to scary, usually the preacher is yelling half the time.
ReplyDeleteThe one we go to now. Maybe. Our oldest is 6 and he could probably handle it. They discuss a lot of the same things in Sunday School.
We as a society have certain subjects that we 'hush hush'. But honestly, it is the real world.
From my 6 and 4 year olds perspective, the fact that they killed Jesus is pretty scary in and of itself.
The whole Bible is full of blood and gore, sex and violence. It is really hard to shield our children from this for too long. I think it is better to talk about these things in the context of how God is working in the world than for them to hear about them otherwise.
Here is my 2 cents.....I'm fine with letting the parents choose what is the best for their family. I personlly choose to send my kids to children's church because they learn at an age appropriate level and they enjoy it - big church "bores" them. That being said, however, I do choose to sometimes include my kids in the worship experience and then take them to kids church for the message. I think it's important for them to see worship modeled.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have a HUGE problem with, however, is when churches make that decision for the parents. My husband was on staff at a church that made a decision to make the services "adults only" which meant that parents who chose to bring their kids into the service were asked to leave and bring them to a "family area" in a different part of the building. I think it sent an entirely wrong message to everyone involved....and I HATED IT! Of course parents should have the courtesy to take disruptive children out, but to tell them that they can't bring their kids to church if they want to? I think it's just wrong!
First of all, let me say I love this site. When I'm reading the posts, I usually find myself alternating between laughing and feeling ashamed because you're actually talking about me.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I believe very strongly in the "family integrated" model. I'll be the first to admit there is no direct outline for this in the Bible. And there are some topics I'd probably rather my kids not hear. At the same time, though, those topics can create great starting points for discussions that will profoundly influence their spiritual development. I think a lot of people don't give children enough credit about what they actually understand so they create programs and activities to try and "keep things on their level" when they're really depriving them of some great growth opportunities.
I also have to strongly disagree with the one post that mentioned the "glassy-eyed" families that usually bring their kids to the services. That's a broad and really just mean statement. Most of the families I know that bring their children to the services are very attentive, both to what's going on and to the disciplining of their children.
Speaking of discipline, I'll also say that if a parent can't handle making their child sit still at church, good luck making them do anything else either. It's calling training, and if you didn't want to do it all the time, I'm not really sure why you had kids in the first place.
I've had this same debate with my mom. She's a HUGE fan of taking your kids to church (I think partly because she doesn't want to take a turn in the nursery, a requirement at her church ;)). Any time I talk about taking my boys to the nursery, she goes on an on about the importance of having them in big church and about how we don't give them enough credit.
ReplyDeleteI, however, think they are able to learn so much by having lessons taught to them that are age-appropriate; lessons where they relate on the kids level and with situations they are currently dealing with.
I've seen little kids in big church, and often times, they're coloring or eating snacks anyway. Rarely do you see a three year old taking notes and saying "Amen" when the pastor is discussing the importance of marrital faithfulness.
But that's just me. :)
taking care of children is not a distraction from worship. it is part of worship itself. would you ask if music is distracting? is the powerpoint screen distracting? the stained glass? passing the plate takes time and attention away from the more pleasurable aspects of the service; should we kick it out too?
ReplyDeleteif our goal in worship is the cognitive acquisition of information, or attainment of an emotional meditative experience, then yes, children are a hindrance. but worship is not limited to or defined by those experiences.. nothing wrong with them, but they're not the only reasons i go to church.
i want my children to love church and look forward to it. i want them to experience God there. if they can do that better in the nursery, then that's fine. if that happens in big church, even better. but i'm not leaving them in the nursery for my own convenience, and i'm not keeping them with me for my pride. a little flexibility and a little grace go a long way.
I sat through the entire church service beginning at the age of 3. I had been taught "The Lord's Prayer," so I participated in that recitation (we were Methodist at the time). My parents had me stand during all singing, and I went down front for Communion, though I did not receive it until I had accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior.
ReplyDeleteIn the Baptist church we went to from age 7, I sat through every single service. I sang, I listened, I scribbled in the bulletin, I read my bible, I whispered loudly, and I got in trouble at times.
But I was in the entire church service every single week, and I LOVED it. And so did my brother. And so did almost all of our friends.
I also went to Sunday School, but at the same time as my parents. After S.S., we went to the service together.
My daughter is 16 months old. When she is 3, she will be in Big Church with my husband and me. I will do my best to help her learn as much of the words to the songs as possible. She will participate. She will be trained how to sit through a service. She will go to S.S. when we go - at 9:45 and then go to service at 11:00.
Too many kids exit the children's church program in 6th grade and DO NOT know how to behave during a church service, because they've never been taught how to do it. What a nightmare! I would much rather train her from a young age than have to undo 11 years of not having any experience in sitting through a sermon.
If I can expect her to sit nicely at the table through an entire meal, then I can expect her to sit through a church service, too. It will help her learn how to sit still and be quiet at school, too.
Kids are allowed to be WAY too wild and crazy these days when they need to learn how to be quiet and respectful. For as modern of a parent as I can be, I do ascribe to the old value of "a child should be seen and not heard" to a certain extent. She will learn how to be quiet and listen without interrupting if it's the only piece of manners she learns!
I want my kid to be a kid, but I also am raising her under this motto: My kid is a future adult, and I need to teach her to the best of my ability how to be a godly woman in a world that is doing everything it can to keep her from knowing, loving, and serving Him.
For my family, all of us in Big Church is the way to go. It may not be the way for yours, but it is for mine.
I like the family argument, but I think kids sometimes miss out when big people sermons go over their heads. A family I love at my church has a kid who is like 6 (maybe) who just wanted to sit with his parents Sunday. You can't beat that. Sometimes I wish I had a 6 year old son who just wanted to sit with me ... then I hear a 3 year old cry in service for a while without the parent taking him out and then I'm glad that I don't have that problem.
ReplyDeleteMy vote is for Children's Church, but I'm no stickler.
Sofa church?!
ReplyDeleteI am SOOOO there!
Sofa church?!
ReplyDeleteI am SOOOO there!
I'm that dude who likes to lie on the floor during small groups while others are praying or singing an acoustic version of Hear I Am To Worship. I like to pray and praise myself to sleep. Sweet dreams. Sweet baby Jesus dreams.
Our church: 40 member family/households (many households of single adults or couples without children). We barely have enough folks to staff a before-service Sunday school.
ReplyDeleteWe have recent immigrant families from Burma & the Sudan attending. We have kids from the neighborhood who come to our mid-week kid stuff coming on Sunday without their parent. It's always noisy. My husband and I, who thought we'd finally gotten to the stage where we can sit and listen, now "parent" the parentless kids of his Sunday school class during church.
If you want to sit quietly and feel holy, ours isn't the church for you. But, if you want to know you're part of the body of Christ, in all its messy glory, we're it.
What is worship? And if we're doing it in a way that only works for well-behaved adults, is that the right way?
That said, sometimes I wonder why God didn't send some of our folks to a bigger church with more services in every respect of that word -- ie children's programs and more staff, and more helpful programs. But for some reason He gave them to us. So we soldier on.
Oh, and you CAN wear jeans to our church, or shorts and a t-shirt (with words, though not if you're my kid).
Good topic. I agree with most of your pros and cons. I guess I just want to share something that our little church, a new church, less than a year old that came from two churches that joined together. My husband pastored one of the churches and was asked to interim the second. He found that the second had a long standing tradition of a "children's message" which he felt was terribly outdated. Well, he was wrong because God has done amazing things through his children's messages which are now part of the DNA, in a sense, of our church. The kids and adults love it. They begin church together, worship music, prayer time, offering, for everything but the sermon, they are together. Then the children come up and participate in an object lesson that relates to the sermon topic, but again in a way that is kid sized. They laugh, interact with the "stuff", raise their hands, barely able to stay in their seats so excited to share their ideas. It is fun! There is something really terrific about seeing 4-10 year olds excited about what the pastor is saying. Then they go to an amazing teacher who is not glitter and glue but teaches the deep things of God in ways that connect with these young lives.(For example, this week they learned about warning signs like a stop sign to be safe to cross the street, but they were not in church for the message of staying alert for adults as we watched Joseph deal with Potipher's wife accusation of attempted rape) So yes, it is good for kids to not always be separated by age from big church. There is so much healthiness in intergenerational settings.
ReplyDeleteFrom personal experience, as a youngster (aged 7 ish) i loved to hear the sermons when there was school holidays. And i took it in. I even had a concept about what adultery was. I loved Sunday School too, but liked big church even better because it was more on my level. You may not believe me but it is true. That said, i am a quiet, thoughtful person and i understand that this is not everyone and that we mature differently.
ReplyDeleteStill, sitting still and listening is a fast disappearing skill-in church and school. If the kid is from a Christian home, i think they should be disciplined to sit still and be respectful. The 'but they're just kids' argument grows old when they act the same way as teenagers. Kids do have to sit still and behave (albeit for shorter periods) in Sunday School anyway- it's rude to delegate your squirming kid to Sunday School because you can't handle him/her.
Our church normally starts off with everyone together and then the kids get let out before the sermon. I don't believe that young kids (under 5 or 6) should be at church at all because they won't take stuff in and will just cause annoyance and distraction to other churchies (including their mother). Our church has a creche for these kids so mum can have a break or if she wants to go in with the kid, there are speakers there so that she can hear the service.
So that's my two cents worth
Haven't read through all the comments, so I will just say this even if it's a repeat.
ReplyDeleteI also see it on both side of the table. The thing I see is the distraction tool that may keep non-believers hearing the message. Let's say it's a really good sermon aimed at reaching the lost and JoeImAnAtheistInvitedHereToday is listening and ready to make some big decisions and then suddenly LittleTommyWithBigShoesBehindMe starts kicking the back of the pew, talking about his snot, or begging for some crackers and cheese? And then JoeImAnAthiestInvitedHereToday loses his train of thought and byebye chances of reaching him?
I say all this as a mother and also a member of a church that allows children in and whose church also has an awesome children's program.
I can understand at some level those new families to the church who would like to scope it out before sending their children in with complete strangers, especially as large as our church is. But I see the same families with the same children in there most of the time and have to wonder if it's entirely necessary for them to be in there? And I would also have to add that the percentage of messages-not-meant-for-children-to-hear is slightly higher than 30%.
It's a hard call. I have a reallly hard time with this one.
Such controversy. I have a 4 year old and a 7 year old. Instead of causing someone to stumble by letting our kids stay in church OR go to children's church, we have chosen to leave our kids home alone on Sundays. As long as there are no candles burning or R rated movied on TV I don't see the harm. Everyone should try this. In fact, I think you should call all your friends and try it this Sunday, saying you're calling on behalf of your church. Ministers have enough to worry about and you will be doing everyone a huge favor by thinking outside the box. Come on, be a HERO!
ReplyDelete"That's the heart of this issue, are we trying to offer the best environment possible with the least distractions to bring people to Christ, or do we think having our kids in the service with us is more important? I don't think any of the arguments for bringing them into the service outweigh the possibility of letting one lost person slip by because a baby was crying."
ReplyDeleteWhat if our children are the non believers we are leading? and seriously, the Holy Spirit will not be distracted by a crying baby. If someone can have a holy moment at nine inch nails concert with screaming fans and many many things more distracting than a baby, they can certainly be reached even with crying children in the room. I'm all for having the sanctuary BE a sanctuary from distractions but distractions are not universal. I consider the girl spending the entire sermon trying to pull her skirt down long enough to be a huge distraction. I was once distracted by the piano player (I married him later). Does the mean we don't allow short dresses and piano players in church? Kids do not universally distract, some non believers may be attracted to the grace given in service to the children, especially single parents who aren't comfortable leaving their kids, my sister coming to mind.
I don't bring my kids with me all the time, but I should have the freedom and grace from the congregation to bring them with me if we need to be together at times. It bothers me that there have been so many statements that we are being everything from a distraction to a tool of satan if we sit with our children and they act like God made them to act. After their sister died, my boys needed to be with me, and I needed to be at church.
I know children are distracting, but try having a little grace for the parents and the children. You don't know why they do what they are doing. You can sit somewhere else if a staring child is bugging you, but demanding that the sanctuary be child free is completely contrary to grace.
I am not surprised that there is no consensus on whether or not children benefit from "big church." The answer for each family depends on the parents, the church's culture, the young people, and God's guidance. My kids go to big church--we set an example for them during church and they hold us accountable in between Sundays.
ReplyDeleteI am surprised at the number of people who believe they should have control of the congregation's worship environment. Worship comes FROM each of us amd goes directly to God; worship is not FOR us. If a baby crying disturbs a person's worship time with God, then perhaps God wants that person to learn how to stay focused on Him.
I hope the people who are distracted by children doing child-thiings are not the same people who talk to God while driving!
Sandy
Jon, sorry for the confusion. What I meant about far-reaching was the child disciple (see the comment from tracy, mom2many - she basically says what I meant, but more efficiently). Though I'm starting to think that was the joke part and I am just slow. :)
ReplyDeleteAs far as people complaining that all children's church programs consist only of coloring and crafts and goldfish crackers, I think you have a very outdated view of children's ministry. Most of the churches I've been to or know of don't just babysit and do arts and crafts - they have some play time, but then they sing worship songs and have a mini-sermon. Also, it's not a "thumping music" free for all, and if it is, then your church needs a new children's director. Just because they aren't in big church doesn't mean kids should be free to spend the whole time running around screaming and never pay attention to or respect their teachers. Yes, they spend some time yelling and playing; no, it is not/should not be the main focus.
Think about this: Your first-grader sits through six to eight hours of school a day, at the same desk, with the same teacher, all day long. Now, I understand they get bathroom breaks and recess and whatnot, but they're definitely used to sitting still and learning on their level for at least 30 minutes to an hour at a time. However, that does not mean that same six year old is capable of sitting through a college alegbra class. The subject matter is over his head, so he's going to check out, doodle, get up and wander around, sing to himself, do whatever he can to stay entertained. This is the same thing with kids in big church. I don't think there's any reason why a kid who's at least been to kindergarten can't sit still and be quiet for an hour, but that's not the point. The point is, if you have a decent children's ministry available to you and, and your kids would love to attend that, but you are choosing to keep them in the sanctuary with you so that they can "learn how to behave," you're doing three things: (1) You are teaching them that the point of church is "to behave." (2)You're trying to teach them something (sitting still, not talking when the teacher is talking) they've already learned in school. (3) You are starving them spiritually by denying them biblical teaching on their level in favor of what appears to them to be an hour-long game of Don't Break the Sugar Bowl. If your church's children's ministry does suck, or your school-age kid would rather go to big church with you, that's great. Go for it. As far as kids who aren't old enough to go to school and haven't learned those skills, please don't subject everyone around you to their screaming and squirming. There's an unwed teenage mother sitting behind you, and she really needs to hear what the pastor is saying about our God being a God of second chances, but all she can hear is your kid asking for more Cheerios.
so if we're going to check the scriptures, try finding Sunday school in the New Testament. i'm a part of a house church and i've been in a house church where the kids hang out for the worship portion and then went downstairs for learning from scripture and we all rotated who's turn it was to hang out with the kids. i've also been in house church where the kids stick around. most are toddlers, so it's a bit distracting at times, but it's way fun to be all together. i also know youth who've been part of house church who also attend a traditional church's youth group.
ReplyDeleteI am so glad you brought this up. My husband and I found ourselves in a position of seeking out a new church last year (long story, but our newly born 3rd child and Washington Beltway traffic were big factors in the switch).
ReplyDeleteAnyway, we had found a very nearby church which we sort of felt fit us, but they believed all children over age 5 should be in adult service. Our 8 year old son is mildly autistic, with some sensory issues. Our 5 year old daughter idolizes her older brother. Can you see where this is going? Monkey see, monkey do - and suddenly we are *those* parents.
I grew up in a traditional church where there was no thing as children's church. They started one when I was about 7 or so. But for those first couple years I sat and colored, or fiddled with the hymn book, or fell asleep with my head on my mother's lap. I'm not sure how much of the message I really took in, unless it was by osmosis. I loved going to children's church! We left after the opening music and Scripture but before the sermon. We had a lesson, some singing, a craft, and a snack.
The church we decided to go to (Crosscurrent in Ashburn, VA) has a marvelous children's program run by wonderful, loving, mature believers. I've caught bits and pieces of the program and I wish I had such a program when I was little. My kids are really learning too - *they* bring up things they've learned on their own after church.
However, if parents want their children in service with them, the children are welcomed and nobody gives you the hairy eyeball.
I think that is a best-of-both-worlds setup.
I think it's interesting that a lot of these comments are about personal preference and children being distracting. Don't get me wrong, I work in children's ministry, and I think it's a great thing, but I also think that parents need to model authentic worship to their children. I believe that children are the primary spiritual nurturers of their child's faith. Children's ministry can be a great thing, but we shouldn't forget that we need to be the body of Christ and not see children as any less a part.
ReplyDeleteSorry... quit reading comments at the point where a "pastor" called you a cuss word and swore to God. Kind of lost his credibility.
ReplyDeleteWhen our oldest daughter was two, we moved to a different city and needed to find a church. Our first Sunday at one church we were told by several people that there was a nursery available. We politely said, "Thank you, but we'll keep her with us." We had been keeping her with us in worship since she was 6 weeks old. After the service, those same people came to tell us how impressed they were because she was so well behaved. Did she listen to and understand the sermon? No. We kept her entertained. I see nothing wrong with bringing quiet activities along to keep little ones busy during the service.
ReplyDeleteNow, at nine years old, she still keeps her head down during the sermon, sribbling on the bulletin, but she hears and understands what the pastor is saying. In fact, recently we were at a gathering for the ladies in our church where we played a game involving a little Bible trivia. My dd was the only one to know the answer to the question, "What was the name of Moses' mother?" I asked how she knew and she told me that the pastor had spoken about her in his sermon the previous week. Every one of those women heard the same sermon, and she was the one to remember. Now, I don't value trivia over understanding. It was however a sign to me that she really has been listening and taking in what is being said in the sermon.
Both of our children (ages 9 and 3)also love to sing in the choir. I feel so blessed that our pastor not only allows children to be in the service, but also encourages them to actively take a part in it.
"From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise." (Psalms 8:2) Jesus also refers to this in Matthew 21:16.
We do a disservice to our children when we don't allow them to participate in worship. How will they know what to do when it is time for them to serve? Will they even want to get up in front of everyone if they have never had the opportunity to do so before?
Another benefit of allowing children to be in the worship service is that they interact with people of all ages in the service. The older people are blessed by the younger. The younger people learn from the older people.
Now that I've said all of that, I also believe strongly in the importance of age appropriate instruction for children. The time for that is Sunday School (that is scheduled before or after the worship service), Sunday evening, Wednesday evening, and most importantly at home.
I am not opposed to children's church. I believe that it should be available for those that want to send their children out of the service. I don't think it should be glorified babysitting though. I would not attend a church where children were not allowed to participate in corporate worship. I would not send my children to children's church that was all fluff either.
Thanks for bringing up this topic, Jon. I appreciate hearing what everyone has to say about it.
I have to echo the concerns from tracy, about this guy who thinks that the goal of the church is to offer "the best environment possible" to give lost people no distractions and get saved. first of all, where in Scripture did that come from? what I remember reading is that the Church is for worshipping God and equipping the saints to go out and evangelize the lost. and if my babbling baby could actually thwart the work of the Holy Spirit as He woos a soul, then I wouldn't want to serve such an impotent god as that. this guy also sees children primarily as a distraction, which is opposite of the way Christ sees them.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure no one will read this after 82 comments, and I'm not going to read through all these responses, so I'm sure I'm repeating what someone else has said...
ReplyDeleteWe have our 12-month-old in church with us every Sunday, morning and evening, and have since her birth...we really feel convicted that, as God's people, we are called to worship as households, just as Israel did in the OT, and the early Church did in the NT. Our little girl is part of our family...and even though my husband and I might miss bits of the sermon, she is learning to worship God with her brothers and sisters in Christ. That, and, Lord willing, she will be able to sit and pay attention at a very young age in a way that I can't even now. (I was in Sunday school until I was 12 and still struggle.)
"Out of the mouths of infants God ordains praise." Why can't she worship Him in His house too?
Anon above with the little girl in church. I also wanted to add that when kids are misbehaving in our church, the parents take them out to the crying room for discipline, and if babies are being noisy, we have a little "soundproof" room to take them to, since they don't have the self-control not to talk and babble all the time. We all try to be the least disruptive we can!
ReplyDelete"I also have to strongly disagree with the one post that mentioned the "glassy-eyed" families that usually bring their kids to the services. That's a broad and really just mean statement. Most of the families I know that bring their children to the services are very attentive, both to what's going on and to the disciplining of their children."
ReplyDeleteI am the person you are referring to, and I did not say that the families were "glassy eyed," nor did I infer that the parents were lax in discipline.
I was speaking of families that I have observed in MY OWN church, whose kids stand during worship but their eyes do look completely glazed over, like they're completely bored with the whole thing and are only standing because mom and dad made them. They are not participating in the service - plain and simple. And it is easy for me to make this statement because there are only 2-3 families who believe this way.
I am sorry if you felt I was making a "broad" statement. This was a personal observation of a few families that I happen to know.
Again, it's a parent's prerogative how they want to run their own family. And no, it's not "hurting" them any to sit in the adult service.
To each his or her own, ultimately!
80+ comments! WHEW! I'm going to be here a while. This point may have been shared already, I don't know cuz I haven't read all the comments yet. Jon, you asked if having the kids sit in 'big church' is true to our call to become more child-like. Well, here's my thought (I know you're breathlessly awaiting). Yes, I believe it is. Christ has encouraged for our FAITH to be child-like, not our BEHAVIOR. I personally cannot picture in my mind Jesus telling one of the disciples to gather all the little kiddies and take them away from the crowd while He talks to the adults. In fact, I recall Jesus rebuking the disciples for trying to get rid of the kids. Am I right? So, I believe that Christ wants our children with us as we hear the Word of God and worship Him corporately. BTW my family is one who has recently removed our kids from children's church, so this is a new conviction for us that we are acting on. So far our children (ages 12 and 9) prefer being together as a family. They both have awesome insights to the messages they hear in 'big church'.
ReplyDeleteOk, so this is my last comment on this but...
ReplyDeletethis discussion kinda reminds me of a line from Blazing Saddles, "We'll allow the tattoo'd and the beer drinkers, but NOT the 3 year olds". See the movie for the real quote. *warning* it's not christian but it IS hilarious.
I am a divorced mom with four kids. Church is often my r&r for the weekend. It is the quiet part of the day for sure. About two years ago, my son (five at the time) decided he was over the kid puppet show extravaganza and informed me that it was time for big church. Since then, it is our time together and I do love it. He has to sit up and listen. He can draw but no candy or crawling around. It works for us and it guarantees him some time close time with me - he normally leans on my shoulder. I wonder how much longer he will do this!?!
ReplyDeleteMy other kids would die if they had to come to the snore service as they call it. They love their class.
So, we do what works for us.
WHOA.....82 comments!
ReplyDeletejust an addendum to Con #1:
ReplyDeleteRhoda was a young girl who was at the prayer meeting for Peter in Acts 12.
stacey from luville:
ReplyDeletewhen i grow up, i want to be just like you.........
here's what I think about making children attend "big people" church:
ReplyDeletea few years ago, when I was moving out of my parents' house, I was sorting through childhood papers and found one of those little offering envelopes that are always sitting next to the hymnals in the pews. on the back of the envelope were written (with tiny eraser-less pencil) almost a dozen badly misspelled "big words" that I had heard the pastor use in the course of a sermon I was forced to sit through. I was probably six years old at the time, and those words written on the back of that envelope were my proof to my parents that I couldn't understand what was going on in "big people" church and I was pretty angry about it. I wanted a children's program! or at least something easier to understand.
- Carrie in PA
I am the early childhood director for our church. We offer an early (traditional) service, followed immediately by Sunday School for all ages (adults, too), which is then followed by another (contemporary) service.
ReplyDeleteCurrently, all of the children under my "jurisdiction" (babies through kindergarten) do not attend the service. They do, however, go to Sunday School and, with exception of the babies and toddlers, all have curriculum that they learn from every Sunday.
The only time the older kids (4 and up) participate in the service is during "special" services like Christmas and Easter. And I still have parents of these children complaining that they have to take their kids to church with them.
My feeling is that kids of a certain age should go to the service, at least for part of it. If they are capable of sitting through a Sunday School lesson, they are capable of sitting through the music and introduction portion of a service. However, I don't think 2 through 4 year-olds need to sit through the sermon and should go to children's church, if available.
That's just my two cents. :)
First, let me acknowledge that what I'm writing comes from a different tradition than the one that seems to underwrite much of this great blog. So, feel free to disagree with me, but...
ReplyDeleteI can't see why it would be a good idea to send children away during the Mass. The service itself offers a unique way of understanding Christ's sacrifice, and I think that children of all ages should be taught to participate. Since the sermon portion of the Mass is generally quite short, there's probably less worry about kids getting distracted than there might be in churches with 30+ minute sermons.
Further, taking children out of the main sanctuary would, necessarily, involve putting them somewhere further from Christ's presence in the reserved Eucharist elements, which I can't see as being a good thing.
Finally, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the church is a family, and I think we do ourselves a disservice by putting children out of the family during any part of the Mass, which is the best expression of family unity we have. I think that these things outweigh any other considerations, though I recognize that in a more protestant setting things are different enough that these points may not apply.
"Though we are many, we are one body, for we all share in one bread."
rather than an either/or question, couldn't it be a both/and?
ReplyDeletei grew up in sunday school for one hour, followed by "big church" for an hour - from birth to high school graduation. i can only remember retaining fractions of the sermons from my childhood and adolescence, but by the time i was an older teen, i could see the value in going to "big church."
i agree with all of the people who have commented on the importance of learning enough self-control to sit still in church as a kid.
when i started as the youth director at my church here in HK, the children's director and several parents were very nervous about the idea of the 11 and 12 year olds attending service - not on the grounds of inappropriate topics, but because "they can't handle it." in that case, at what point will they be able to handle it, if they are never asked to attend "big church?"
Real quick:
ReplyDeleteJust want to say (as a Children's Church volunteer) that I absolutely don't think that sending your kids there is "kicking them out of church." Children's Church IS still church. Hopefully your kiddos are in there learning about Jesus!
I'm confused about people saying, "What about the whole 'Let the little children come to me'?"
Children can come to Jesus outside of "big church" too.
There are many reasons that I go to church.....
ReplyDeleteBut somewhere at the top of my list is: Free babysitting. It is just a huge bonus that the "free babysitting" includes, my kids having a blast, learning about Christ, and did I mention...its FREE.
Taking your kids to church...... hmmmm.....I would be nuts. Trying to make them #1 sit still #2 be quiet #3 Not kill or be killed, doesn't show any of the 4 of them "God's Love".
PS. Oh yeah, and I am a minister's wife
Boy, a lot of feedback. My two cents...concerning the statements about the "unsaved person" in church that could basically miss their opportunity for everlasting life due to an unruly child nearby. I don't think the God of the universe says "you know Katie almost gave her heart to me in that service in Blufftown, Kansas, but the little boy ruined it by distracting her. Oh well, she'll have to spend an eternity in hell because of little Joey Sherpinski."
ReplyDeleteSecondly, what is worship? I would argue that worship is what you do with your life outside of our "church buildings". As a husband how do I serve my family on Monday...how do I speak to my kids and my wife on Thursday evening when I'm frustrated. How do I treat the waitstaff at my local restaurant and do I love my co-workers. Do I pray for my family etc. I guess my point is that the NT church is not like our model. It consisted of gatherings of believers that was participatory unlike what we have now which is mainly a spectator sport and I'm guessing that kids were part of the early church's gatherings as well. So in our present model we can debate "big church" vs "little church" but for someone who has been attending for over twenty years (and this advice goes for me...big time) let's work on our lives outside of the church building more so than for a few hours on Sunday when we all have on our spiritual hats.
One last tidbit...kids are way smarter than you think. Kids hear and understand way more than you think they do. As far as issues like sex, adultery, drugs, pornography etc...what better place is there to discuss these issues than in a setting led by mature believers and then can be further discussed at home.
Life is a messy proposition because here's a news bulletin...planet earth consists of broken, messed up people and therefore all of our churches consist of broken, messed up people. It's always been that way. So I'm on journey to being real and unfortunately a lot of times present Christendom doesn't agree with it. (But I'll tell you, it sure is refreshing!)
If children are destroying hymnbooks, scribbling on offering envelopes, crawling under the pew, eating snacks, standing on the pew, talking, crying, etc...they don't belong in big church.
ReplyDeleteChurch is not the time for all the above activities.
I look at most problems with kids in church as the parents failure to teach their children boundries.
Yeah. why does it have to be an either-Or thing. it should be both. I think the way most churches run on sunday morning can be problematic... i fell like they're often saying:
ReplyDelete"come little children.. take this choice morsel of verbal teaching in and leave with smiles on our face until we see you next sunday"
uhm... so far as i understand it, church is a Community. and communities are interactive AND give and take. Also church shouldnt just be a sermon and music. important yes... but surely we can do things that are a bit more... every day. maybe eat together. or talk... or...?
shipping kids off to sunday school without giving them any real mature talk or chance to integrate with adults (perhaps to even learn what it means to be a woman/man of god by seeing it) can be problematic in the long term me-thinks. shipping them off ALWAYS is to almost say that kids cant teach adults about Gods nature.
I think you'll be in triple-digit comment land on this one, Jon.
ReplyDeleteOur church has a fantastic children's ministry where the sole focus is growing those little hearts into big hearts for God. They even have their own worship time together in the gym (singing many of the same songs the adults sing, plus a "Who's The King of the Jungle?" type-song or two thrown in), a message/mini-sermon from the director of children's ministries, and then the kids break into their respective classrooms for more lessons. It's far more than glorified babysitting, which is one reason we chose our church.
After church, my husband and I make a point to ask and discuss what they learned. They recite their memory verses. We tell them what we learned, too, emphasizing the fact we are still learning new things about God as grown-ups.
Great debate!
ReplyDeleteThere are many moments in life that can be shared as a family, around a Bible, in the woods, in the park... But Church is a time to share with our Christian Family, getting to know other people and teaching our kids to serve, to meet, to reach out to others, outside the family.
My son, now 17, still gets a phone call now and then from a Sunday School teacher he had when he was 4. That's what Chruch is for, to allow our children to have Christian mentors other than their parents. Let's recongnize that we need others in the body to help us raise our kids.
Besides, am I the only mother on earth who doesn't want to spend 24 hours a day with her kids?
Great comment, Yvonne!!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with all of you who say that kids' church is NOT babysitting. If I was nothing more than the church daycare director, I'd quit my job.
Again, it's the parent's prerogative what they want to do with their kids, and I'm not going to spend my valuable time fighting with them about why they don't bring their kids to kids' church - I've got other kids whose parents DO bring them, and those are the kids I need to concentrate on ministering to.
But if you're ever in my neck of the woods, I hope you'll stop by my church, and your kids are always welcome, too. In big church OR kids' church!!!
I love how our church does it, because kids get the best of both. We have a "childrens talk" where 2-3 lessons are read and there's a short (10-15 minute) talk that's geared toward kids under 12. During this portion of the service, kids and parents and everyone else is still in the service. After the childrens talk, kids under 12 all leave for sunday school, and kids 12-15 leave for youth group. Everyone else stays for more lessons and a longer sermon, still based on the texts from the childrens talk. I love having it this way, because families still go to church together.
ReplyDeleteDid the Hebrews have a children's service? Was there a "mini-temple" for little kids? I must have missed that in the OT.
ReplyDeleteEveryone starts out as a child with no indoor voice and questionable personal hygeine.
Most of the comments I've read about "big" church dealing with adult issues that have no place in children's ears are pissing me off. If your church is truly concerned about these issues - then small group (or large group) bible studies for adults should be held to address them. Worship of the Lord is for everyone - kids included.
That said, there's no reason for churches to not make worship a family friendly environment, and to offer Sunday school and children's programs that ARE geared to appropriate developmental stages.
I know my Lord already. I also know that these years when my children are small are the BEST and also the hardest time to teach them about my wonderful and loving Savior so that they may know Him too. I am willing to give up some of my Sunday worship attention in order to teach that to my children.
I'm pretty sure God will understand.
Somebody said: Sorry... quit reading comments at the point where a "pastor" called you a cuss word and swore to God. Kind of lost his credibility.
ReplyDeleteHope living in that plastic Christian bubble where you never have to encounter real human beings works out for you...
I never thought I would see "the Bible" as a con on anything, but I guess if I broaden my thoughts a little, it would show up on con lists for other things like impatience and fornication...
ReplyDeletePersonally, I keep my kids with me in the worship service. It's not that I don't want to send them to the nursery or children's church - I've been a leader in both of those settings and it worked well. However, as their mother, I feel that for MY children, they are at an age where they are capable of sitting quietly, listening to the pastor, and understanding what is going on. Sure, they may fidget and need a piece of paper to draw on at times, but that's why we sit at the back of the sanctuary. Although they do partake in their fair share of running around and screaming like banshees at home (and sometimes outside the church), my children are well-behaved and well-disciplined enough that I can fully expect them to sit still and listen. They're 7, 5, and 4.
ReplyDeleteI really don't think there is much I can add to what others have already said. (Especially Leanne - wow, I could not have said it better!)
ReplyDeleteA great family attended my church for a few months, and then decided they wanted to find one where everyone was always together. This seems to work fine for them, but one would think that a sermon that everyone can understand means it is not very deep. I know that a 5-year-old would have serious trouble understanding one of my pastor's expository sermons. If he were to "dumb it down" so that a 5-year-old could understand it, I would no longer learn much, if anything. Someone is going to be missing out if everyone is always together. Generally speaking, people have different learning styles as they age. You don't teach a toddler the same way you teach a teenager, and you don't teach a teenager the same way you teach someone in their 30s. That's just life.
That said, children should not be forbidden from church services. If their parents want them in there and make sure they are not distracting anyone else, fine - let them in. That's why I couldn't understand why that family left my church - no one disapproved of them bringing their kids in the service. *shrug* I think that, if possible, churches should offer a children's church option, but parents should be able to take their kids in with them if they so desire.
I'm all for having my daughter in children's church (or actually nursery at her age) in our church. I think kids are going to actually get something out of it if it's geared more toward them. They might sit still in big church, but how much are they understanding? That said - I would keep my daughter with me if I was visiting another church.
ReplyDeleteIn my Pastor friend's church, the kids attend the service until just before the sermon. They have a children's message and then the children all go to SuperChurch. I thought that was a great idea for a name for children's church!
ReplyDeleteI'm just gonna tell you what I see each week. As a volunteer, I lead worship most every saturday night in an "all-age" service in our church. I'd guess 30% of the butts in the pews belong to kids under the age of 12. We have optional child care for 3's and under. We deliver the same sermon as Sunday, we give the same announcements we have communion and annointing services, hot topics and full out "adult" worship. The kids are totally engaged. We have children alongside adults on worhsip teams, some kids help with percussion, families usher and serve as greeters together. The kids, for the most part, are dialed into the message. From things my kids (9, 12 and 15) say days later I know they are learning and growing. We have families come take communion together, come to the alter together to pray. We see kids come to the alter to pray alone. My son and 9 of his buddies sit in row #2, center section. They cause no distraction. Many of the parents feel as though we are apprenticing our children in worship. We have tons of people who come without kids, and especially the empty nesters say they love to have the children in worship with us and are touched to see them invovled as they are. When "big church" is over...the kids to to an incredbly strong children's program...just like Sunday morning. Adults can go to adult classes and students go to the youth center. It's been a lot of work, prayer and inspiration. But all-age worship is working at my church. And church on Saturday night is working too. (that can be another post) I love sunday mornings at my church, but I would not want to go back full time to sundays or "adults only big church."
ReplyDeleteThank you, Amanda and Emily. You both said what I wished to say better than I could. My husband and I have never been a part of a congregation that offered a children's service, so we have never had to make a decision one way or the other. But, we have talked about it, and came to the same conclusion: our children would be with us during the entire worship service, and attend Sunday School either before or after (depending on when it was offered).
ReplyDeleteOur 20-year-old daughter and 17-year-old son have been in church with us nearly every week since they were two weeks old, and they can tell you they have only been "taken out" once or twice. They sat quietly (without sippee cups), followed our finger under the words in the bulletin or the hymnal (reading practice), and, when they were still toddlers, nodded off now and then. Now, they aren't angels, by any means...just kids who know there's a time and place for everything.
Oh, and a hint that a wise older woman once gave me...Don't sit in back!!! Sit up front so the kids are "in the middle" of the action - they will be more interested in everything. I hadn't thought of it before I had kids, but my mind does wander more when I sit in the back of the sanctuary...hummm...
i find it mindboggling that there are such strong opinions on this topic... which is not a salvation issue, i'm quite certain.
ReplyDeletemust be exhausting to be so right all the time.
i get it, that there are opinions... is the "rightness" that kind of concerns me...
(univeral)you don't know my church or my kids... so maybe (universal) you... can do what you love to do, without judging those who do it differently.
and don't say you aren't judging, either. that's embarassing. when you take a staunch stance(that's hard to say) on something like this... you suggest that only you are doing it right...
may we never do this. it's blech.
and also, can my kids sit with you? they are kind of bugging my world in church... ha
for the record: my kids go to both Bible fellowship(aka sunday school) and big church... they really love it when we're too late for big church.
As an aunt, who takes her nieces and nephews to church with her and a children's church teacher, I would say I prefer for children to have their own service, as long as it's not just "play time".
ReplyDeleteI think kids can and should learn about Jesus, but do need to have it on their developmental level. I also think that if my 4 year old can understand the sermon points, the pastor can probably go deeper.
I do however, love having my four year old in communion service with me. I go to an Anglican church and we have communion every week. It's so awesome to see him learn reverence and ritual, while also getting the chance to tell him how much Jesus loves him and that's why we do it.
This is fascinating to me because the idea of Sunday School happening during worship is entirely foreign to me. We have Bible classes for adults and children prior to the worship assembly, and there is not another option for children during the worship service.
ReplyDeleteI grew up knowing to sit still, not to talk, to face the front and not look back at the clock because it was bad manners, etc.. It was a very staid atmosphere. The focus was more on my behavior than on the heart of what was happening in the room.
As an adult, I find my mind wandering all over the place during the sermon and even during the singing. Being in the room and learning to sit still didn't help me become a better worshipper. Because what was being said from the pulpit wasn't something I could comprehend, what I learned was to sit quietly and think whatever thoughts my mind wanted to ponder.
To this day, I find it difficult to sit and listen to the preacher and remain focused. I do have great 'church manners' though!
As if anyone will read this at #113 ... :)
ReplyDeleteJust some thoughts from someone who isn't all or nothing, isn't an FIC groupie as commenter Amy said, has taught children for 17 years in church, and has four little boys who climb trees, wrestle, fight and sit through church before going to Sunday School:
- The children were present when Moses sprinkled blood on the Israelites as they entered into the covenant - that had to be pretty heavy and yet it was commanded that all be there. Kind of makes you wonder if anyone whined in the middle of the reading of God's commands? I bet that's why they didn't obey. When everyone else was saying, "We will do as the Lord commanded" and getting a blood shower, they were probably wiping little Levi's nose and missed what they agreed to ... because kids are what cause distractions and sin ... those little heathens ... it was the distracted parents that made that calf you know.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that children in service equals coloring on Bibles, poking pencils through the chairs, messes, paper crinkling and crying.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that because some parents don't have the knowledge of how to teach their children the habit of attention ... that all children should be separated from adults.
- I wish people wouldn't automatically assume that those lacking that knowledge are somehow lesser people ... sadly, some people in my circle look down on those who lack knowledge that they attained last year.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that my children have little to no contact with other adults who love Jesus just because they don't go to children's church. We make a point of teaching them how to interact with others of all ages, because that is the body of Christ.
- I wish people would remember that (unless I have my history wrong) Sunday School was originally developed for children who didn't have believing parents and were not discipled throughout the week by devoted moms and dads. I believe they were actually street children.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that my children must be angels because they can sit through church.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that I'm Wondermom just because I took the time to teach my children to sit down and develop a habit of attention.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that I get nothing out of the service with my eye on my little ones ... nor do they.
- I wish people wouldn't assume that the pastor's sermon is the only time my children get spiritual input throughout the week, and would stop feeling sorry for my poor, friendless, play-doh-less children.
- Learning to sit comes in handy in other places besides the apparent torture chamber of hearing the word of God ... God forbid ... NOT ON THEIR LEVEL ... such as running errands with mom, being on an airplane, waiting in a doctor's office without terrorizing everyone present, ...
- It isn't about the amazing holiness of a child who can sit through church without fruit snacks. It's a lifestyle of bringing our children alongside us, something I wish we did better and something that is our goal. It's about remembering that children don't learn as much when they are only spoken to on their level - that children rise to a higher level by being offered a higher level with grace and love and understanding ... and allowing English (even big words) to be spoken around them in context. There's a lot more to it than whether or not Junior has creased pants and doesn't blow bubbles during the sermon.
from a gal out west
I'm in the middle. I do NOT think it's appropriate to ban kids from the sanctuary. (I know one local church that does.) I also don't think it's appropriate for everyone to bring Jr. into big church.
ReplyDeleteIt's an individual decision, based on your child and their needs. Their needs should play a HUGE part in where you decide to take your family to church.
It's just one more of those things that frankly...doesn't matter. At all.
I have to say that I really appreciate that most churches now have "nursing/cry" rooms, so Mommies don't have to miss out on solid teaching because their precious one slurps when they eat or because they have farts that rival their father's.
"My son, now 17, still gets a phone call now and then from a Sunday School teacher he had when he was 4. That's what Chruch is for, to allow our children to have Christian mentors other than their parents."
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing that Yvonne. My little brother had someone like that for him when he was little. She bought him his first little Bible and wrote on the inside flap. My mom still has it. She was known as "Miss Betty" and was so very sweet. My brother wouldn't go to just anybody...only my older brother and Miss Betty (other than my parents) were "good enough" for him when he was little. ;)
Anyways, when my brother died, she had already gone blind, and yet, when she heard about it, she wrote my parents a very lovely letter.
So, what you had to say reminded me of that and how true it is how important someone like that could be in a child's life. :)
Thank you. (Tear, tear).
After looking at the number of comments, I thought we were talking about tattoos or drinking again!
ReplyDeleteI can only speak about our church. And as a pastor, I have mixed thoughts.
One. I love having children in church. I agree with those that see it as a time for children to be with their families.
Two. We do have a great children's church - separate from Sunday School - that meets during worship service. We have great volunteers that do an incredible job. Although I try my best to keep the cookies on the bottom shelf when preaching, there are a lot of concepts that are hard for children to understand. Age appropriate learning is great.
Three. Children's music. Part of the Christian heritage is learning all the fun children's songs. We're not going to sing Zacheus was a wee little man in worship time, but children need to learn that song!
Four. The distraction angle. I hate to mention this. In my church it isn't the children, it's the adults wanting to play with the children. Very rarely is a child out of sorts. But, the adults around them trying to get the children's attention is pitiful. It's not the children's fault or the parents fault.
Miss Hannah is obviously not a teacher....I challenge anyone to go to a (kindergarten!? Try even Grade 8!) classroom and see children sitting in their desks, listening to a teacher lecture them for 30-60 minutes at a time. Doesn't happen.
ReplyDeleteAs a teacher, I can say definitively that today's children cannot pay attention to one *activity* (additional empasis on the "active" part--not a lecture) in school for more than 20 minutes. If you let it go beyond that, you've lost them. Our culture and the way we raise our kids for instantaneous entertainment and gratification has essentially removed their ability to just be still and quiet. And yeah, my daughter does have to learn it, unfortunately.
Also, a few people have mentioned the unbelievers who may be distracted. No offence to unbelievers, because I love them and want them to be saved, but my main ministry as a mother is to my children. So, yes: My daughter is more important to me than all those unbelievers. I've got a charge to keep, and that is to ensure that my children grow up to be mature Christian adults. I covet the salvation of my daughter more than anyone else on this planet, and I think this is right, because God gave her to me for that purpose. I believe that the pattern of the Bible is family worship, and I believe that God will bless bringing our daughter in to worship with us. How can she not benefit from worshipping and communing with God's people?
Children need to be exposed to the "seedier" side of life, too, and I think the earlier the better--and so much the better in the godly setting of worship with a biblical perspective. It's *my* job as a mum to bring those things down to her level and teach her. She's *my* responsibility, not my church's. I just think that a lot of Christian parents have abdicated a lot of responsibility for raising their own children, and that includes plopping them in a children's "service".
And for those people who say their kids hate "big church" and just love "children's church", since when should we let our children do just the things they want? Isn't it our job as parents to determine what's best for our kids? If you think kids' church is best, fine...but I don't think our kids really know yet what's best for their eternity.
OK so a little late to the party. I think you raise some good points. I thought I'd expand upon the family unity one. As someone without children, I often find kids in church to be distracting and to interfere with worship for those around them. That's probably mostly my problem, but I come to church to worship and the kid struggling with the candy wrapper and kicking the back of my chair makes that difficult at times. So I guess I would say that if you are bringing your kids to "big church" because you want to be close as a family, then be sure to be close and parent for the sake of those around you.
ReplyDeleteOf course I find, the discussion of attitude that people experience as Christians without children to be interesting as well.
Great blog by the way I really enjoy it.
1. I'm surprised at how many people underestimate a child's ability to sit, listen, and learn. I've seen it, and very young children can do it. Church shouldn't be a place of entertainment. Period.
ReplyDelete2. I'm surprised at how many people seem to think of children sitting and learning with them in an "adult-only" environment as a burden.
i side with the not taking them to church...but i love that my church has the kids stay for worship witb their families and then they are dismissed to their classes when the sermon starts...they get a little bit of both worlds...and sometimes i think adults should spend some time in sunday school..i play bass for our children's worship band (yes we have an entire worship service just for the kids and it's a blaaaaaaast!) and those little guys are like no holds bar when it comes to worship...if they have a booger, they pick it..if they're tired, they lay face flat on the floor..if they want to jump for Jesus, they jump as high as they can....it's great
ReplyDeleteI have seen many variations on this phrase...We do a disservice to our children when we don't allow them to participate in worship.
ReplyDeleteAre you folks telling me that the only place to worship is with the adults. Can't they worship in kids church or anywhere else for that matter?
I think this discussion could go on for years and there still be valid points on either side of the arguement. As someone who doesn't have children, but has volunteered with kids ministry at a few different churches, I found that the decision has to ultimately be left to the parent without the church leadership making a parent feel awkward about what the parent chooses. I have seen parents really judged for choosing to keep their kids in church with them. I have seen some amazing kids programs, but at the same time, my parents led our childrens church and kicked me out at 10 because they felt I needed to be in adult church. HA!
ReplyDeleteWhere I currently attend, kids stay in during worship and then are dismissed for a lesson on their level. The bulletin each week announces what the kids message will be so that parents can discuss it with their kids later. I think this is a great blend because the kids learn how to behave in church, but aren't subject to a sermon that will probably be over his or her head.
My 10 year old 'social specialist' daughter loves the 'kids program' that is geared for her grade level. She excels there.
ReplyDeleteMy 8 year old son likes 'main church' with me. This is acceptable to me, and he behaves fine. Before we go in, I say
"Do you have to use the bathroom?
Do you need anything to drink?
Do you want a program and a mint?
Ok, good, you're all set, now let's go in."
So then, he doesn't ask to leave for anything.
Great questions Jon.
I have noticed that in most Evangelical churches their is the option of "children's church" and that in Liturgical Churches their is not. I think it has to do with differences of theology behind low church Evangelical worship and Liturgical worship. Hymns and a long sermon vs a short sermon and the Eucharist. It also has to a lot to do with the view of children in Evangelical churches and Liturgical churches. Both would say a person becomes a member of the Church at Baptism, but disagree whether Baptism is appropriate for Children.
ReplyDeleteHi Jon,
ReplyDeleteI will confess that I did not read all these comments, so this might have been covered already. However, I wanted to comment on your question that maybe having children attend big church is going against the command to be more child like. Might you consider that Jesus was referring to a child like spirit? I think that adults and children can both maintain a childlike spirit even when going to big people church. In fact, often times, I see kids in my church singing their little hearts out to God during the worship time and it propels me to be more like them in my worship- to be less afraid of being judged and more honest about my love for Jesus. With all the comments about kids being a distraction in big church, I want to propose that maybe kids could be a positive distraction- a reminder that God created them too and that they also have a relationship with Jesus and that most often, we can learn from them in their simple approach to faith, they willing hearts, and they trusting love of Jesus. I don't think that having kids go to big church removes the child from them. I think it might actually help us remember to access the child within us. As adults, I think we often become too uptight about our own ideas and views about how things ought to be. I just wanted to give you a different perspective. And, as Tracy mom2many stated, just because Jesus didn't have a kid as a disciple does not mean that he ever excluded children from his ministry. Maybe the reason a kid wasn't a disciple has more to do with the kind of life Jesus lived on the road and the fact that it wouldn't be healthy or advisable for a child to live that kind of a life than it does about the child not being invited into the community of discipleship.
Great post. As a kids pastor I to see things much like you do. I see value in both but lean heavily toward kid focused teaching.
ReplyDeleteIt's to bad 70% of our teaching in not kid friendly. I don't think thats the way our Saviour rolled.
I think another big component to take into account is if the parents know how to love their children or not.
ReplyDeleteDo my kids understand everything they hear during the worship service? No. But they understand a whole lot more than people expect them to. Apparently, I don't catch everything either because they often mention things later that I missed. And those big words extend the learning for my children, because later they ask what those words mean and then we have these great discussions at home. We don't have a lot of good discussions about their Sunday School lesson, because it was all "at their level" so there's nothing left for them to wonder about.
ReplyDeleteI've written about this topic several times. I don't make blanket statements about what's best for everyone, but having our children go to church with us has been an amazing blessing for all of us, in many ways I didn't expect.
Disclaimer: We attend a Family Integrated church, mostly full quiver, average family size 8 (six children), 100% homeschooled. Our families, in addition to their homeschooling Bible activities, would have daily family worship led by the patriarch. We almost never have problems with disruptive children in church; and I don't recall ever seeing a child taken out to be spanked... perhaps the parents are very discreet. We have a room in the back for 'nursing mothers and small children'.
ReplyDeleteOne of the main reasons for family integrated churches is to re-form the family... or at least to stop the destruction of that formation by the church. The Biblical family is designed as a body, a body with different members each with different roles, but designed to work together.
The husband/father is meant to serve as the family spiritual leader ('priest' in Biblical language). He is meant to be daily teaching the Word to his wife and children, training them in Godliness, and answering their questions on Biblical matters (Chapter and verse suppliable on request).
By dividing the family up into seperate groups, the church destroys this role. The son is being taught by his 'youth pastor'... who usurps the role of his father. The father may have no idea what he is being taught... and (as all who have children will testify) there is no way for him to adequatly extract that inforation from his children 'afterwards'.
The Biblical church focuses its efforts on the husband/father. The father is then equipped to lead and guide his family.
One of the most dramatic illustrations of this is in the qualifications for elders. A large portion of the qualifications focus on their role as patriarch. If a man cannot lead his family well, the apostle queries, how can he expect to lead the church of God?!
I have to say I am surprised by how many people find this a difficult topic. I grew up in the Catholic Church. I wasn't even aware that not taking your children to worship with you was an option. I never heard the term 'Big Church' until I had children of my own. I married a Baptist and we attended a Methodist church as a 'compromise' early in our marriage. Pretty soon we were teaching children while the other adults were in 'Big Church.' So I've been on both sides of this equation. I think it's really pretty simple. Do what's best for your children. We all learn and process information in our own way. Get to know your child and how he or she learns. For myself, I think it is probably a good idea to keep really small children in a separate environment. However, I think kids should be in 'Big Church' well before they join the youth group. I think many congregations do themselves and their children a disservice by keeping them separated for so long. But that's me and that's my opinion. I should do what's right for my family and you should do what's right for yours.
ReplyDeleteI strongly believe that children should go to their kids ministry rather than the adult experiences. Now let me say I come from a very biased view point (I work in the kids department at our church). You see, we work hard to package biblical truths in an age appropriate level (starting at age 2) to lead kids to Christ. And yes it is fun!! We can learn about Christ AND have fun at the same time!! Have we as adults forgotten that? I would humbly ask parents, do we want a generation of "good" little children sitting the pews looking nice with their families or do we want a generation of children that actually learn who Christ is in their lives on their age level? I also have a huge issue with kids crying and freaking out during the adult experiences. There are people there that need to hear the gospel and that's hard to do when little Billy is screaming his head off :) Plus, I was the kid in church with my parents growing up and I got ZERO out of it because it wasn't on my level. And for a long time I thought church was completely irrelevant because of my experience. Did I mention I'm opinionated? :)However, at the end of the day a parent has to do what the Holy Spirit is telling them to do regardless of anyone's views.
ReplyDeleteHello Lori,
ReplyDeleteAlmost Humorous...Are we comparing kids to animals in a petting zoo to kids?
2 Chronicles 20:13
13 All the men of Judah, with their wives and children and little ones, stood there before the LORD.
When the people of Israel appeared before the Lord their children went with them.
When the offered gifts and sacrifices their children usually were by their side.
Their was no "child care"
The Probable Reason
Deuteronomy 6:20
“When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which the LORD our God has commanded you?’
From God's View:
Children are a heritage (The only living monument we will leave)
God concern is that, if they are absent they will not remember Him.
God told Malachi:
Malachi 2:15
But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring.
Jesus said in Matthew 19:13-14
13 Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
God apparently wants our children to be with us for the example:
To witness communion service
To witness baptism
To witness testimonies given of lives changed (I know, I know we no longer do that but we once did)
To learn to reverence the Lord's presences during a service.
Ask yourself if God cares about the sound quality of a recorded or video taped service. Or perhaps the entertainment value of the service.
The 30% of "Adult content" that the pastor will cover, the kids will probably get in school any way.
The writer's final error comes from his incorrect assumtion that Sunday School is for kids and not for abults. Sunday School was traditionally ran before morning service. Becauce the older generations new the scripture and christian doctrine couldn't and wouldn't be covered in a 90 minute service.
WOW! 25 years ago such a topic wouldn't even have been taken seriously...
Your's Truly Rick (Sunday School Teacher & Director, Youth Leader and Bible Teacher & father of 4)
you could NOT take a deer in a street fight. i know youre awesome and all, but for real you would get destroyed.
ReplyDeleteI would humbly ask parents, do we want a generation of "good" little children sitting the pews looking nice with their families
ReplyDeleteSpeaking for myself, I would much rather have a generation of good little children sitting in the pew... and sitting at their parents feet on a daily basis learning about things of the Lord.
Good little children who understand that church is not about them, but about God. That they should be learning about God not from the pastor but from their father and mother.
Research has shown that the average church today (after all of these wonderful innovations) is losing 75% of their children. Whereas homeschoolers (who are in the forefront in objecting to age segregated worship) are keeping 75%+ of theirs.
I have enjoyed many of the posts on this blog and have identified with those strange things we do in the name of worship (hand holding, fake greetings etc.).
ReplyDeleteHowever, this post on children in "big church" really got my attention. As a home school family we have debated over the years how our family would worship and what programs we would have our children involved with. We decided that we wanted all our family together for the worship service. We have noticed that it is becoming the trend in most churches for families to be separated for most of the church service, either by children's church or some other program that is promoted as a way for parents to worship and learn without having to worry about their kids.
It seems to me that most parent's excuse for wanting their kids seperated stems from their inability to impart loving discipline to their child. Yes, it is possible for your child to sit quietly for the service and even if it does become difficult for you, it is after all just a season of life. Parents, it is your task to train your child, not the program directors or youth ministers . As to those who say that the church service is not appropriate for children, I would reply that this is the problem with the modern church which doesn't really address the needs of families and has become so feminized that most men/dads are bored silly as well as their kids.
Youth programs/Sunday school/children's church do little more than entertain kids and do very little to develop them into authentic believers. Sunday schools and youth groups seem to be part of the growing problem whereby 70% of children raised in Christian homes walk away from Christianity by their first year of college (I think it is even earlier than this).
When kids can no longer be excused from the church service to attend the special "program" they find church is boring and not fun. Instead of teaching our kids to be self disciplined, we are contributing to the modern problem where most children and teens brains are so over stimulated by "fun" things that they can't listen to a 20 minute sermon.
I think the church model should be more like this church: http://www.hofcc.org/ in Troutdale, Oregon that promotes family worship and trains fathers to be the spiritual head of the home.
Children don't need to be little adults and sit like zombies during the service, there are some great ideas posted in other peoples comments that can help keep your child sitting quietly while observing their parents worshiping God. I think we are falling into the belief that parents can't raise children without intervention from experts.
Verses such as "Don't forsake the assembling together..." and Jesus chastising the disciples for not letting the "little ones to come unto me" (the disciples thought that the kiddies would get in the way and be too noisy etc.) seem to indicate to me that we should all be together to worship.
Little kids in big church don't bother me one bit. What I find annoying is the adults trying to shush them, but making more of a commotion than the kids themselves. Everyone - including the moms and dads - would be better off if they spent their time listening to the sermon and not focused on the kids... (Not talking about when the kids is actually screaming - then by all means just pick them up and take them out.)
ReplyDeleteAnd where do you guys get this "teaching children to sit still" thing? Have you ever actually watched a group of ADULTS in church? We don't sit still and concentrate either. We text, chat, leave to go to the bathroom, read the bulletin during the sermon, look around to see who didn't make it to church today, etc.
Let's face it, we are all just big babies who want things our own way.
Voddie Baucham gives an interesting address about the nature of the church that relates to this discussion:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.uu.edu/audio/chapel/fall05/102605.wma
In our family of six children, 3 boys and 3 girls, we have always attended the worship service together. We find it a blessing to find out what the Bible text and hymns will be before Sunday and go over them as a family. We may memorize a key verse, write down key words, write down questions we may have, draw pictures of concepts for the younger ones, etc. Each child takes his journal to church and can take notes or draw pictures for our after- church discussions. We have found that if you consider the age and development of your child and get them ready for Sunday in advance, no one is bored, and we enjoy the lively discussions thath we have together.
ReplyDeleteAs my Grandpa used to say about having his whole family in church, "We all came together, I guess I always figured we should all sit together"
Way late to this discussion, but I wanted to chime in some support and clarification for some points that were mentioned already. If I'm reading through all the comments this late, surely someone else is too.
ReplyDeleteI personally would completely toss out the, "distracting to non-believers," argument. While I'm not saying it's bad for church services to be open and not excluding non-believers, the trend of explicitly catering to non-believers during services (usually at some detriment to mature believers) came about out of our own laziness and cowardice to do God's will. Instead of service being a communion with believers to refresh and instruct for the week's mission work, we just lump everything into Sunday and make our only mission to simply invite people to our "seeker-friendly" church.
And in many cases, too, the whole choice between big/little church is too respectful to the world and disrespectful to God. It doesn't matter that you live in the suburbs, or that Timmy has a 1 PM select youth soccer match on every Sunday; it is not unreasonable to expect a commitment to faithful attendance at a regular worship service and pre/post-service education.
By all means, have a Sunday School, but don't force it as an either-or with your main worship service.