For a few weeks, I've wanted to do a post on faith healing. It's an interesting topic but to tell you the truth, I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. The pastor of my church, Andy Stanley, rarely takes his coat off and hits someone in the face with it to heal them. My dad, another minister, never healed anyone either. So in many ways, I don't feel qualified to write about faith healing. I don't understand it. I don't have a firm grasp of what the Bible says about it. I don't feel "called" to write about it. But, I feel perfectly capable of writing about interesting things we Christians do. And on the radio this morning, I was given the perfect chance to write about faith healing by a guy named Todd Bentley.Todd is doing a revival right now in Florida. But this is not about revivals or faith healing. Todd has a bunch of tattoos and seems to have lived a hard life prior to becoming a minister. But this is not about redemption. Todd, much like the burning bush or the donkey, might be simply a creative, outrageous vehicle God is using to spread His word. But this is not about creativity.
This, is about kicking old ladies in the face.
I know, I know, just what you need, another post about kicking old ladies in the face for God. But I couldn't resist. When I heard a secular radio station playing Bentley clips today it felt like a present had landed in my lap. How so? Well here is what Bentley recently said about a church service he was leading:
I’ve been led to do some crazy looking things in the gift of faith that took real boldness. One time I was in a meeting that was just dead. So I asked God how He wanted to bring a breakthrough. He showed me an older lady right in front of the platform worshipping Jesus and the Lord said to kick her in the face! Unconvinced, I felt to tell the Lord what He already knew: “I have these big biker boots on. You want me to kick this woman in the face?” Clearly I heard God say, “Yes.” So, with no one knowing what was about to happen, I went up to the edge of the platform and BAM my boot went right out at the exact moment that she fell under the power of God. In fact the power of God caused everyone on the platform to get knocked down. There were miracles that followed.
So I asked God, “What was that all about?” The answer was: obedience.
Here is what I think about that quote, even if the old lady was never actually kicked in the face:
1. Can you imagine if your current minister had that same thought? What if you were at LifeChurch and it was kind of a quiet Sunday and Craig Groeschel just kicked some old lady in the face?
2. If you went to Todd Bentley's church, wouldn't you sit in the back row?
3. If were went to church and the minister kicked your grandmother in the face, wouldn't you fight that minister?
4. You know how certain songs or sermon topics will become trendy and sweep the nation in lots of churches? What if face kicking was the new trend?
5. Don't you wish that old lady read this blog and could post a response? What would that look like? "I was just at church worshipping when all the sudden the minister kicked me right in the face. When he tells the story he says I fell under the word of God when his boot hit me. Another way to say that is 'he knocked me out cold.'"
I really hope people don't interpret this as me picking on faith healing or a particular minister. I don't know Todd, have only listened to a few sound bites of him speaking and in am in no way attempting to call his ministry names. I hope no one emails me and says, "God told Abraham to kill his son, is that less crazy than kicking an old lady in the face?" The truth is, I would make fun of Andy Stanley, Donald Miller or anyone else on the planet that kicked old ladies in the face for God. That is a silly story, but I can't help but give you one more Bentley story:
We had a meeting in a word-faith church; not much was happening. Everyone was wearing a suit and the appearance was ‘real proper.’ I looked around thinking: God, you promised me revival. Immediately I heard God say: “‘Leg-drop’ the pastor.” That’s what He said to me! Meanwhile the pastor was lying on the ground. Then the Lord told me to leap off the platform and just jump in the air and leg-drop him. God, you’ve got to be kidding, I thought. He said, “No! Make it real. I want this to be a real leg-drop.” him. God, you’ve got to be kidding, I thought. He said, “No! Make it real. I want this to be a real leg-drop.”
Update: 5/25/08
This one generated some interesting commentary. I didn't write it to serve as a discourse on how I feel about faith healing or Todd Bentley. I didn't write it to, as one reader put it, possibly "create division within the body of Christ." Not at all. In fact, I edited out two things that I felt went too far. I took out the word "crazy" and another section that I felt was uncalled for. I took them out because I don't know Todd. I've only seen him do things on video clips which is a poor, small example of who a person is. I should have been clearer in explaining that I am by no means trying to say, "God can only act in ways I understand." God is bigger and wilder than my little head can understand. I do however stand by the idea that leg dropping another minister and feeling that God is calling you to kick an old lady in the face is a subject worth exploring on this blog. I do not stand by what might have come off as an attack on a minister I don't really have any experience with. I am going to make loads of mistakes. I do not feel putting this post on the site was one, but I do think some of my word choices were.

85 comments:
I don't know much about faith healings, either, but I do know this: I HATE it when people, like the pastor you mentioned, blame stupidity in God. I'm sure He's up there thinking, "Hey! You're not doing me any favors." It's crap like this that makes following Christ look like a fool's paradise, which is not what Jesus was about. If God really talked to people like what's mentioned in your article don't you think Acts would read something like this: "And God spoke to Peter saying, 'Give all the guilty Jews a tunic wedgie while the rest of the Disciples sucker punch by-standers. But keep it real, Pete, keep it REAL."
Here's a good motto to live by:
QUIT.
BEING.
VOLUNTARIALLY.
RETARDED.
And certainally don't blame it on God!
Stacy
(Good for you, Jon, for addressing this issue. Can't wait to see the posts on this one!)
Is it possible this guy confused the call to the wrestling ring with the call to the pulpit?
Think about it...think about how similar the two jobs REALLY are...
Haha! I live in Lakeland and the church I minister at is about a mile away from where this revival is taking place.
I'm sooooo glad you did this post. I don't roll in the particular denomination(s) that are involved in this revival, but I have friends that do. I was talking to one of them yesterday who has been to a couple of the meetings, and these are the exact words he used to describe the event:
"Daniel (me), it was crazy. There were so many people there. They started off with about 1 hour and 45 minutes of worship. That part was actually pretty good, but any time you get several thousand people singing worship songs together, it's going to be pretty powerful.
But, after they transitioned out of the worship time, things went crazy! It was exactly like an old-school WWF [now WWE] wrestling match. They're were two 'announcers' on each side of the stage calling back and forth about who was going to get their next miracle. And the evangelist was up on stage shouting onomatopias and smacking people. After 3 and a half total hours of all of this (during which they never even cracked a Bible), I got tired of it and left."
My friend goes to charismatic churches (which have been known for a little flair) and is overwhelmed by the "wrestlemania" atmosphere. (Leg drops and face-kicks, anyone?) This evangelist is a little...Well, whatever.
It's a circus right now in L-Town.
*Blinks*
Memo to Mr. Todd: There's a little thing you might want to try called "testing the spirits." Because I don't remember Jesus kicking anyone in the face in the Bible.
Wow, apparently God loves the WWE. How did I miss that?
I'm 6'4, 250. The revival in question is 10 minutes from where I'm sitting. Perhaps I should go sit on the front row?
Please... PLEASE tell me that last clip was a joke. Have mercy on my side-muscles and tell me it wasn't true.
Do they charge to watch his sermons? I think I would pay to go...
I'm all about faith healings, but I do also believe that there's at least some level of respect and reverance in a church - am I the only one? If an little kid ran down during the alter call and kicked some old lady in the face, we'd snatch him up like a ham on Christmas Day. And if he tried to say "But God told me to do it" He's get a little extra spanking once he got home, just for 'pointing the finger at God'.
More power ot him, though - if he feels led, I'll just know to stear clear of the isles and such when I hear him speak. :-P
Well, this posting is going to generate some conversation, so I might as well dive right in...
I do have some experience with faith healings, and I am pursuing more and more...there's so much more to the power of God than we experience, especially here in this country.
We can be called to do some pretty outrageous things for God. I don't know the pastor mentioned, and I can't judge what his actions were about, but I'm not going to limit God and say "He'd never say something like that." This is the same God that told Abraham to kill his own son, that told a bling man to make a paste and stick it in his eyes, that told the Israelites to kill everyone in their path, that told Noah to build a big floating box when it had never rained before, who busted up the temple and told people to literally drop everything and follow him around...God's ways aren't our ways, and He can ask some crazy stuff!
Tony Campolo has a few great stories about being disgusted by something someone said they were "called to do," only to later find out that it led to someone's salvation. I would hate to hold back someone's salvation because what God was asking seemed too weird!
Faith healing is worth studying out in the scriptures. Twice my husband has laid hands on me for something and I have been healed of it. I have seen others be healed as well. We have power beyond what we understand, and we can't be afraid to use it for HIS glory.
Priceless...
LOL! I love the part where you compare the hearing of the quote to getting a bag of candy..where to start?!
Another comment the old lady (and I'm guessing she's my age, you brat...um, uh, sorry. Did I just think that out loud?) could make is, "Who needs the devil when you've got God kickin' you in the face?"
I think he's possessed and should be excommunicated. I'll take my "frozen chosen" bretheren over the wild antics of the emotional any day. It's easier on the jaw.
Uh...if you hear him talking about "being slain in the spirit," run away QUICKLY. He might be packin' heat.
Oh dear!
It's so odd that you posted about this guy, because my pastor and his family and some friends went to his healing just last night, and all of them felt that it was very strange.
I don't know, I have yet to read or hear anything positive about this guy (that's not from himself).
i don't think i've ever laughed harder than at the first quote from Stacy. oh man. so good.
Sara... i dont even know where to start with your comment...
I guess i'll start by saying that I do believe God heals and uses people/laying on the hands to do so...
BUT...nothing you mentioned is even remotely comparable to kicking an old lady in the face... does God use crazy methods? yes... but nothing even remotely similar to kicking an old lady in the face...
and to say that "if one person finds salvation, its worth it" is a bit naive. Sorry if that offends you, but God will use any and every method DESPITE our stupidity. it doesn't make it the right thing to do...
A lot of people came to faith through tragedies such as 9/11... but that doesn't justify the deaths... it simply shows that God is amazing and will use stupidity and tragedy for good.
Stacy - LOL! Preach it, sister!
tmamone - Oh yeah!
I would NOT go to church if our pastor asked this man to come here. It sounds like this guy is just wanting attention and probably - money.
It is exactly this kind of thing that turns the lost world away. Where is the fear and reverence of a thrice holy God? Where is the preaching of the Word so that lost sinners may be convicted and see their need for salvation? How is this edifying to the body of Christ? This "revival" is a travesty and should be labeled Circus Church. And we wonder why their is no genuine revival in the land...
Wait, I'm confused. Did dude's boot actually make contact?!
Did he leg-drop the pastor? What is a leg-drop exactly?
I don't know a lot about faith healing, but I do believe in the laying on of hands. And I do believe God has given us His power to heal people. But I've never seen a blind man get body-slammed and then get his sight back. Not saying it couldn't happen. I've just never seen it.
"If God really talked to people like what's mentioned in your article don't you think Acts would read something like this: "And God spoke to Peter saying, 'Give all the guilty Jews a tunic wedgie while the rest of the Disciples sucker punch by-standers. But keep it real, Pete, keep it REAL.'"
With Peter responding,
"No doubt, JC. No doubt. You know how I do. I'm representing Capernaum FO' REAL up in this piece!"
I bet you he won't pull his act at a small Apostolic church in the hood. Dude is bound to get kicked back. Some folks follow Jesus. Others follow Peter.
*pats knife in side pocket*
hilarious.
I find this more than strange and very disturbing. I'm not sure how spiritual I could be if a man put a boot to my grandma's head. Was that in the south? Pretty sure that guy would've been crawling out of the building because the deacons would hopefully go postal. It's also extra precarious to me to use God's name like that. (Possibly in vain?)
This reminds me of the "God told me we're going to get married" pick up line. I'm not sure He's super happy about that kind of thing.
Kudos Stacy. I love your motto.
Oh wow... healings. That is awesome.
With miracles so great and as numerous as these, then there must be documentation and follow-up to the healings that are going on.
Oh wait...
I can't wait until the next black belt ninja becomes a faith healer.
I smell a tag-team cage match!
Did Chuck Norris lead Todd Bentley to Christ?
"So I asked God what that was all about and He said: obedience"
Huh. Here's another spin:
So I asked God what that was all about and He said: "I don't know I wasn't even in the room."
Just another thought I wanted to add.
Stacy nailed it.
I tend to ask anyone who says, "God told me --" where is that in the Bible?
I'm with that great man of God, A. W. Tozer who said that if an angel came down from heaven and prophesied to him he would ask for the scripture reference, and keep quiet about it unless the text was cited. (Sorta paraphrased, but pretty accurate.)
Hey, ok, this is Sara, the one everything things is nuts...want to clarify something...
I am NOT defending this guy. I don't know enough about him or what happened to make a judgment either way. I wasn't there and I don't know him. And I don't reccomend kicking people in the face. Sounds a litte crazy to me.
I just don't want to discount God's ways. I just don't want to limit Him to my understanding. That's all I was really saying. I think there's more to God than we realize, and I think there's so much more we can experience in Him than we do.
And I DO believe God does tell people to do things, and I believe it is Biblical. That can be abused - such as Fred Phelps, who just infuriates me - but I believe He still speaks to people. That's why He gave us His Spirit.
So I'm not some lady-kicking crazy. Nor do I support those guys who let snakes bite them and stuff. I just want to advocate for all God has and what He can through us. That's all.
I guess I am a person in the minority here on SCL. I've heard Todd Bently speak & loved it, I believe in faith healing, I love the move of God that is happening in Florida, I'll admit it - I'm a crazy charasmatic. I speak in a prayer languages, believe and practice the prophetic and (YIKES!) fall down under the power of the spirit. We laugh, dance, yell, and even as horrible as it sounds get emotional. We have even been know on occasion, to open our Bibles and read God's Word.
Smith Wigglesworth was a "faith healer" and has several documented cases of raising people from the dead. Once he dropped kicked a dead baby across the stage and the baby came back to life. Do you think that mom was upset of how the healing came or was she bursting with joy because her DEAD BABY WAS ALIVE! Jesus spit in a guy's eyes and his blind eyes opened. If I had cancer and Todd Bently said that if he kicked me in the face I would be healed "Kick away dude!"
Jessica -
First of all, thanks so much for reading and taking the time to comment. And second of all, thanks so much for a disagreeing voice. I appreciate you not attacking the people that feel differently about this post. That's really cool. Are you serious about the Smith Wigglesworth thing? The drop kicked the dead baby sounds a little iffy. I honestly feel like that's the kind of story that would have made more news. Even if it was 100 years ago, if something like that happened I feel like we would have heard about it. And bear in mind, the old lady didn't have face cancer and ask Bentley to heal it with his boot. Bentley said things were kind of quiet and that was a way to bring revival. I feel like that's different.
But again, thanks for sharing a different point of view. I never want to be one to say who God can and cannot use. So if he's using Bentley, that's not for me to say God is making a mistake
Jon
Jon
Hey. The Smith Wigglesworth thing I've heard too. Infact, its surprising (to me) that you haven't, although he was British, so I guess it might not have reached America, especially in areas where people are skeptical of that kind of thing. Another Smith Wigglesworth thing I've been told (By a guy named John LaFramboise, who is part of the FreshFire ministries which Todd Bentley, um, ministers in) is about a guy being nearly dead from stomach cancer and Smith Wigglesworth punched him in the stomach, and he died. But then five minutes later he got up, and was completely healed. Yes, after dying.
But onto Todd Bentley. I believe that what happened was true. Why, because I have seen things like that happen before. I am only 15 but I have witnessed amazing miracles. My church is very involved with the Healing Revival in Lakeland, (In fact, Todd Bentley is coming to visit on July 8th) and I know many people who have been completely healed. People who were given one month to live two years ago, alive and well. Lame people walking. I have much respect for Todd Bentley doing that. I mean, if God told ME to go kick someone in the face to heal them, okay, I wouldn't want to do it, but equally I wouldn't want to walk off and say 'Oh stuff you, God, I'll obay you when it seems rational again'
The first time I read Bentley's quote, I got the impression the lady fell before his kick made contact. Like when God told Abraham to kill his son, but the knife never hit Isaac.
Did anyone else get that impression? Have we let the premise overshadow the outcome?
I believe in healing, too. And I am truly grateful for those who are being healed at Lakeland. But it's been my experience, that God often does amazing things IN SPITE of our methods, not because of them. So, glory to God for His healing power - it doesn't mean what we are doing is super-anointed, or even wise. It means that God met the needs of those who were calling on His Name. That's what God does.
I have not been to Lakeland, but I have been following via God TV. One thing that concerns me is the lack of emphasis on the Word of God. Haven't we learned that we need the balance of the Spirit and the Word to make a lasting difference? Healing is great. However, a healed body without a renewed mind and a transformed life is only a temporary miracle.
Caleb -
I was puzzled about that too. Hard to say if she got kicked, but I'm not sure that's the point. Whether or not he made contact is not really the main issue. The main issue is "Does God ever ask us to give people leg drops a la Andre the Giant or kick people in the face?" That to me is the bigger issue. But again, I don't have any experience with healing and am not trying to say it's wrong or it's right.
Jon
Man! My church is so boring!
Moses struck the rock out of anger. God still brought water from the rock. Moses was wrong for what he did, though. He was never able to enter the Promised Land. I'm not saying God did or didn't do something for this lady. I just believe this man's methods are far from biblical/practical.
I can't even believe people feed this madness by showing up at his services.
Ok, I've been a part of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement my entire life. I've been healed and have seen others healed. I know for a fact it's real and it's scriptural. That being said, I have also seen a lot of flaky, weird, and showy stuff go on. And yeah, sometimes God still heals in the midst of all that. There are many cases of ministers(including Smith Wigglesworth)making violent physical contact with people in obedience to God. And these people were healed. I believe God gives us wisdom to discern between real healing and phony showmanship, but we should be REALLY careful about passing judgment and handing down our edicts about these things.
Jerrod -
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate your point of view as someone that has some insight and background in this type of stuff. I agree with you, that we shouldn't make edicts and hopefully what I wrote did not sound like one. Hopefully nothing on this site sounds like an edict.
Thanks for your opinion and for adding to the conversation.
Jon
Smith Wigglesworth
So that's someone's actual name?!
You all do know that some of the "basic" or "fundamental" things about Christianity such as the virgin birth or water turning into wine that probably every poster agrees on sound as weird to non-believers as a roundhouse kick to the chin sounds to most of u, right?
Not saying it's right. I'm just saying we're all weirdos to somebody - especially those operating solely in logic.
I wonder if an uppercut to the gut would do something about my gas?
If you kick my grandma in the face, I'm pretty sure "the Lord would tell me" to make sure you'd be carrying your teeth in your pocket for the rest of your life.
Jon,
Love your stuff, I'm a new fan. Like Jessica in an earlier comment, I grew up in a lot of weird "stuff". Believe me, I have seen it all, and done a lot. There have been times where: 1)I've been 'slain' for real. Where the guy didn't touch me at all and WHAM, I was on the floor. 2)I've had guys try to push me down HARD and I didn't budge. 3)I have fallen down simply cause everyone else was doing it, and I felt it was expected, or I was trying to force a "reaction" out of God. (Look at me! I'm on the floor for you!) I'm human, and have been a fool at times, but I also know I have been touched by God a time or two.
People always cite Smith W.'s faith with examples of healings, and drop-kicks, but if you read his biographies and his sermons, you can plainly see those were oh, so secondary to his real heart of evangelism, saving people to freedom in Christ. That was where his faith was really tested, we just love the big displays.
I think what it comes down to is we have a big God, and we are a lot of little people. He does things in a lot of different ways in order to reach a lot of different people, and we throughout the centuries have either sat back and judged, or we dive right in and get swept away by our own pride and human failings without stopping to think. People often say Christians are close-minded, but the truth is, when it comes to God, we need to more open-minded than ever. 'Cause as someone else mentioned, if God told ME to spit in the eyes of a blind man, I'd look up with my best Arnold Drummond face, and say, "What you talkin' about God?"
There are times when I just want to choke slam some people in church...pretty sure it was all me. Just give me one chance to hear I need to obey those urges... :)
From Annie:
Speaking of Jesus' sputum, back in the eighties, at the Urbana Missions Conference, I heard a missionary to Papa New Guinea named Marilyn Laslow tell a very interesting story that related powerfully to that particular healing.
She was working on translating the Bible for a tribe and had tried repeatedly to try to get the tribe's elders to come and hear portions of the Gospel she had translated. Finally, they came. When they did, they heard the story of Jesus' healing the blind man by mixing his spit with mud and putting it on the man's eyes. They were amazed and connected with Jesus instantaneously. Turns out that in that tribe the medically trained were called "spitters" because their tradition was for a medical person to be trained in mixing his spit with various vegetation and applying it to people's bodies to promote healing. As a result of hearing this story, the elders made a rule that everyone in the tribe had to start coming to meetings to hear about Jesus.
My favorite part? They dubbed him "The Great Spitter."
Sometimes I wonder if Jesus wondered why the heck his Father told him that day to make spit and apply it to the blind man's eyes. If he were carnal like me, he'd be asking, "Why the heck can't I just touch him like I did the last guy?"
Even more, I wonder if the Father had him spit that day, so very long ago, so that in the 20th century, a missionary named Marilyn Laslow could find a way to reach a group of people that needed to hear about Christ.
I love this blog.
Annie
(Not such a great spitter)
From Annie again:
Jon, I can hardly believe this, but I found on the web Marilyn Laslow's talk from Urbana 81! She tells the story in her own words about the tribesmen who got all excited about Jesus when they heard that he healed by spitting. Here's the link:
http://www.urbana.org/_articles.cfm?RecordId=512
hehe... Wigglesworth...
i love how no topic is off limits... and that you clearly read every comment... clearly, your reading public run the gammut and thats pretty freaking cool too.
i'm not putting any restrictions on God... and am not falling on either side of this discussion... but I'm glad i'm not the old lady or the baby...
Please don't compare Jesus's healings with Mr. Todds face kicking. And also the example Jessica gave about drop kicking babys...
As far as I remember, Jesus never resorted to violence. Ever.
Also, it worries me that the obviously untrue story of Smith Wigglesworth's baby kicking is being passed on... especially in encouragement.
Other than the obvious of wondering if guys like that are frauds (seems the NT lets us in on the fact that there will be some), another phrase comes to mind. I once had an older and very wise friend who said, "Christianity doesn't cure stupidity."
Perhaps you've never heard of a guy named Smith Wigglesworth... CBB
there's chuck norris joke in here somewhere...
i'm not going to "google" this guy, I'm secretly hoping that you're making this stuff up.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
...cool, now I have a reason for give people when I punch them in the throat. God told me to.
"I'd look up with my best Arnold Drummond face, and say, 'What you talkin' about God?'"
Please believe that "What you talkin' about God?" will be used this week!!
Jon-
This leads me to another thing Christians like that you should definitely write about: The Power Team or its current iteration, "Strength." These Christian bodybuilders/pro wrestlers tear up phone books and break baseball bats and lift huge weights in front of huge crowds of teenagers and pre-teens to get them pumped up for Jesus. Seriously, I just drove by a local church with a banner advertising the upcoming visit of the Strength team.
Personally, I just think Bentley is listening to the same God that T-Rex from Dinosaur Comics does, not to be confused with the real one.
It doesn't say ANYWHERE in the story that he kicked her in the face. It specifically says his "boot went out" just as she fell in the Spirit, which means that God was telling him to do something that seemed outrageous to test his obedience and God kept the elderly woman safe by letting her fall just as he put his boot towards her. You never know what God needs to use to reach people. Some might need more "extreme" shows of God's power than others.
Yeah, I don't think he connected--I read it that way, too. I've been in a charismatic church for a quite awhile, too, and have seen some crazy things--some of them bonafide miracles and others I just couldn't grasp. I think until you're there in the sanctuary and you can tell for yourself if God is moving, judgement should be spared...
jmo
Oh... my. Methinks he needs to go save pro wrestling. LOL.
Meanwhile, the word verification used by Blogger to make sure I'm not a robot has spelled out "osfart". I may be 24 years old, but that made me laugh out loud. Hehehehe.
this is my disclaimer: i've only been reading about this guy today. i fully intend on looking more into his ministry, and what he claims on his own website. BUT, the fact that i was shown this:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23328&forum=35&13
makes me VERY VERY VERY wary of whatever he is teaching! i'm not putting God in a box, i know that he IS SUPERNATURAL And can do whatever he wants because HE is the creator of all things...but God doesn't contradict himself, and a lot of what bentley says in a lot of his sermons is so very sketchy. the ends DO NOT justify the means. i would just warn you to seriously compare every word he says is "prophetic" to scripture. as we should everything we hear!
This is definitely a very subject that hits me straight close to home, being that I have several health issues (Fibromyalgia, Chronic migraines...etc.). So I can't help but be intruiged by this topic. I wish I could venture down to Florida just to watch from the back row and pray for the discernment to know what's really from Him, you know?
It's just, I'm curious, do demons have the power to heal as well? I'm not saying this guy is a demon, or that he's possessed. He may very well be involved in some form of demonic activity, I don't know his heart.
I guess I'm just very wary of these faith healings. I do however long to be healed of my ailments, though I think I'd have to meet with this guy for coffee a few times before I was convinced a punch in the gut, or a whack on the head with a crow bar would do me good.
I do know that God can provide miraculous healing through prayer. He has done that in me for my chronic sinusitis (sinus infection) earlier this year. I had a CT scan that showed my sinuses totally blocked. The decision was made to have an operation, so I had a more detailed CT scan done for pre-op purposes. When I went in for my appointment after the scan, my sinus cavities were completely clear. I had no drainage or anything, they were just empty. The doctor was quite wow'd at this, and kept repeating that this just doesn't happen. Needless to say, my mother and I drove home grinning.
One last thought: God did say that if we have the faith of even a mustard seed, we could move the mountains. We also know that God is not confined to a "formula" of how He does His work. I suppose if He really wanted a laugh, why not have some guy kick an old lady in the face? (Personally, seeing as God cherishes the elderly so much, it's hard to see this as something "good", but I really don't know enough to say.) He is a gentile God, but also a God of wrath. Both in perfect balance
I suppose that wasn't my last thought.
I was just pondering to myself the perspective of the elderly women. So I'm kneeling at the alter, having a moment bonding with God and rejoicing in Him, when all of a sudden a huge black boot comes towards my face... You better believe I hit the floor! My elderly heart would stop and I'd probably pass out for a little while, or perhaps just faint..depending on my old-age health.
Could this perhaps just have been a coincidence of a faint-and-drop? That spurred on a series of ongoing violence? Just pondering.
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (New International Version
I would suggest that you email him directly before you say anything else about this man.
I have attended his meetings and I would say that this is a Godly man. Just what are you trying to prove?
I did not like the picture you posted either!!!
Pete...
In either stories it never mentioned contact was actually ever made. In fact, when I read the first story, Todd says it like when he put his foot in the air, she went down at the exact same time. It never mentions contact was made.
And next, in the second story, you did not finish it. What happened next? You're not letting anyone know how the story finished. You are just stirring up dirt with half stories and causing the weak to stumble and complain.
If your soul purpose for this article is to stir things up, I would be very fearful. Do not treat what is Godly with any sort of contempt. If God is truly working through Todd, I would be extremely afraid if I were you.
Have not you read Numbers?? What happens when people start complaining of what Godly people are doing? God ..not man.. God... kills them. In fact, God caused a plaugue that killed over 14,000 complainers in a single day. They were complaining of meek Moses and Godly Aaron!! Are not you afraid of our God who does not change?
And if what I'm saying is true, God would not only hold you accountable for this on the day of Judgement, he would hold you accountable for every believer you caused to complain, or create division within the body of Christ.
And as you may have already noticed, I have not said Todd was from the Lord, but I am certianly not saying he's not. I am simply, and lovingly trying to warn you of the implications of if he is truly from God. Please prayfully consider what I am saying!
Brother, May the Lord grant you grace and also holy fear, in Jesus Name.
Laura
I'm with you Man. Look people, we can get all tied up in knots with "what if he's from God". But the fact of the matter is this: We can measure his words against Scripture and we are called to do so in 1 Cor.5:12.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
Todd is from Canada, as am I. I've been following his ministry for the last several years. I've done a lot of reading of his "material" and he is heavily into the "prophetic" which always you to basically say whatever you want as "from God" and have all types of "visions". Do some reading if you're not certain he's a false teacher... it's not that hard to do the research and find the stuff he says that is BLATANTLY against Scripture and *ahem* also happens to be very self-serving for his so-called ministry.
He's a wolf in sheep's clothing, and I'm not afraid to say it.
Hmm. Jason Westerfield recently came to visit the country I live in, and I witnessed the sort of thrashing and bouncing and weird WWF stuff some of you guys mention. I also witnessed Westerfield drum on a woman's back, prophesy healing in her back and then spontaneously burst into a couple of chorus's of "In the jungle, the might jungle, the lion sleeps tonight..." I was visiting a church at the time - it wasn't my own. Yet I also saw leadership from my own church fall under the power of the Holy Spirit, unless of course that was all pretend, in which case I may as well throw the towel in and go punish some vodka somewhere. Because I've been crying out to God for the things in the Word, and minus the strange stuff the preacher spoke about that's not in my Bible, I witnessed things happening that are mentioned in the Bible as opposed to always just hearing about 'how we should be able', and I myself feel increased in faith, and am seeing the fruit of that in my life. Now if that's not real, either I should go get a CATSCAN and accept my life sentence (must be some kind of brain problem got me so joyful)or give up right now and end it all. Sounds harsh, but the way I see it is that the God of the Bible is not some of it, He is all of it, and that includes more than we can understand. I didn't go into that time of ministry, of 'revival' with an open brain, but an open heart to what God was doing, firmly backed up by the strong Biblical teaching my church has given me. I'd rather not know a word of the Bible and have a personal experience of God, that know every word from end to end and still not know what it is to be under the Holy Spirit. God made promises, He is my Heavenly Father - if I can't trust Him, then who can I?
I think we can be glad God sees the heart of man, because if our salvation depended on the judgement of men, we would all have killed each other off by now.
"I really felt that God told me to do this."
Those words can really sicken me, especially when someone is doing something you know that God wouldn't want them do to. If you really want to get that expensive car you can't afford, go ahead and get it. But don't say you went into huge debt because "God told me to." Or if you really want to get married and you don't have a job, go ahead and get married, just don't say it's because "God told me to."
Despite popular belief, God really doesn't encourage stupidity. And unless you really repent and realize "God really didn't tell me to do that, that was my own lust or desire," you're just going to keep getting into bigger and bigger trouble.
Laura -
Although you addressed your comment to "Pete," I am assuming you meant, me, Jon.
First of, thanks for taking the time to post what felt like a very honest comment. I actually went back and rethought my post based on your feedback. I felt it was unfair to use the word "crazy" and edited that part out.
Although I think you raised some good points, I think you also touch on something really dangerous. You wrote:
"And as you may have already noticed, I have not said Todd was from the Lord, but I am certianly not saying he's not. I am simply, and lovingly trying to warn you of the implications of if he is truly from God."
I think that's dangerous because it creates the idea of "maybe." Rather than decide if the subject I wrote about is good or evil, of God, or not of God, you present a "maybe." I was struck recently when the only example of someone mature in faith that is mentioned in Hebrews 5 is that "by constant use (they) have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil."
Instead of maybe, we are shown that the mature in faith are able to distinguish. I think you and I are both in violation of this principle in a way. Me for saying, "maybe violence isn't right" and you for saying "maybe violence is right."
And in doing so, you essentially say that I am in the wrong. Unless you also wrote Todd Bentley an email about his ministry warning him about his ministry, you have decided that my work, my writing on this site is creating a divide while his is good. Yes, you said that you were not picking a side with him but by not ever saying, "Jon, maybe you are writing what God has asked you write" you reveal your thoughts. Maybe this blog is a chance for non-christians to know that there are people like them that don't understand faith healing. And that's OK because we're called to love God, love each other, and love ourselves. First and foremost it's about that.
Again, you're comment challenged me and I appreciate the challenge. I hope that the both of us can grow in our own ways to be able to distinguish between good and evil, because right now, we are both suffering from a bit of "maybe."
Jon
I'm reading "The Tangible Kingdom" right now. In the book, the author asked this question: If all we had were the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), would we approach ministry differently?
Please don't think that I'm suggesting that we disregard the rest of the bible. All I'm suggesting is that when I hear people quoting from the old testament about God's wrath and such, without thoughtful consideration of the price that was paid on Calvary and for the grace that surpasses all understanding, it troubles me deeply.
Yes, I believe that there will be an accounting for the lives we lived here on earth, but because I have accepted Jesus Christ as my savoir, I'm secure in the fact that I will be with Him in heaven.
I'm sure that everyone that's ever commented on this blog knows that Jon has enabled comment moderation. This means that he could simply delete any comment that he felt didn't show his commentary in a favorable light. This also means that he has personally read through thousands of comments, and thoughtfully and graciously addressed many opposing viewpoints (including a few of mine, I might add).
When I pray for Jon, I pray that God would continue to allow him this avenue to gently remind us Christians that we need to be followers of Jesus, not simply "church people", and that his compassion for the human condition would touch the lives of those who may be reading this blog and have yet to enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. And for that, I am grateful.
If Todd Bentley had not shared that he heard the Lord tell him "to kick the old-lady in the face", how would he and his meeting be judged?
The story is clear that he never kicked her, but was chalenged to, and before he did, she went down. At this point no one knew he was about to kick her. I think the idea of kicking anyone is definitley be up for debate, and makes for a funny story on a blog. But I understood that he (Todd Bentley)was sharing this kicking tid-bit as a commentary on obedience and faith, not as a new ministry technique.
I got a good laugh out of it anyway...
WOW! All the pentecostal haters kinda came out in force. Yes everyone, lets lump everyone together with the most extreme of other who may claim to share their "label." Let's try to keep our eye on the ball here evryone. Jon wasn't saying there is no validity to what happened in the story. he was simply satirizing it the way he does everything else. So lets not all either get offended by him or jump on our high horse in agreement with what we think he MAY have been saying. Lets just learn to laugh at ourselves and eachother.
Jeez, it's like we can't wait to argue about how right our denomination is and how wrong everyone else is. Once again, the Christian Civil War lives on. Maybe there should be a post about that.
-John Hall
Fresno, CA
it's funny how a bible is never opened by people like him, it's always just smacking people on the face and whipping people with your jacket. Gotta hand it to God for the smarts He put in Satan, look at how many ignorant people he could fool. The laughter movement is on par with faith healing, it's demonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K8XjObzfXM
This above link will confirm he kicked the old woman in the face, as well as other violent acts.
"and just as my boot made contact with her nose she fell under the power of God"
I'd suggest that the power of his Boot!
Worse yet, this video show TB kneeing a stage 4 colon cancer patient in the gut. Sickening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUTCWLoD4-4
Regardless of anything else though, short of maybe Mike Herrera from MXPX Todd Bentley is one of the coolest looking professing Christians in America. And when it comes right down to it, does anything else matter?
I'm pretty sure that the lady fell out before the boot hit her face. If I saw a large tattooed man's boot coming at my face, you'd better believe I'd hit the floor.
I think that, as Christians we are called to examine and evaluate various aspects of our faith. Sort of a method of checks and balances, as it were, to help maintain doctrinal clarity. If no-one ever had the courage to say to the church leaders "You know what, I don't think so. Look what it says here in Romans...." We'd all be a pack of moonworshipping heathens by now. So thank you Jon for providing a certain level of that scrutiny :)
Also, I would be wary of someone who relies soley on works and rarely on the written word of God. Speaking as someone who is afflicted by multiple physical ailments (some of which my doctors cannot explain. I'm hoping to have a new disease named after me soon ;D ) I would love to be healed of my sicknesses. However, I believe that It is more vital that my heart be sheparded towards Christ through learning about his word than it is for my body to be healed of all problems. After all, in the new heaven and new earth, we will have perfect bodies without illness. I think I can wait 'til then. :)
I'm guessing this is too old to be noticed, but I felt the need to comment anyway.
I'd say it's one thing to disagree with the viewpoint. It's another to attack the people.
When Nick says that people who believe it was from God are basically ignorant, and people who have had stuff to do with the laughter movement (as he called it) are dealing with demonic issues, it hurts.
I disagree with most of the viewpoints in these comments. While I don't know Bentley and can't swear he heard from God, I've read of enough of this kind of thing and seen enough to be willing to believe. But that does not mean I'm going to verbally attack and insult all those who do not agree with me.
Hm, that sounds like I wish to insult you guys. That's not the case at all. I would love to have Bible-based discussions on these issues. That's why I read the comments. But when it's already been labeled as ignorant, demonic, and implied to be retarded, not very likely to generate discussion.
Basically, Jon brought up the issue in a rather amusing way. I was all willing to discuss the issue. But by the time I finished reading the comments, I (by holding different beliefs than the majority) was already pushed to the outside and made to feel that my input would not be appreciated or listened to with any sort of open heart from at least quite a few of the people.
Know what? I can't say I never do that, 'cause I do, too. I'm often just as guilty as ayone, but I think we all need to work on being more loving in our disagreements with other Christians (and people in general). We don't have to agree with each other, but I think it's important to respect each other and do our best to make sure we aren't closing off communication with others.
P
i just want to say a few things, one,,, who are we to judge weither it is of GOD or not, if GOD used a donkey to talk to baalem whats to say he isnt going to use a kick in the face, i know this sounds all crazy. 2, has anyone ever gotten healed thru faith healing, if not then you have no right to say that these healings are just grace healings. 3, what about smith wigglesworth, that man had more faith than probably the majority of christian in this lifetime, you couldnt walk into a room while he was praying and not want to jsut run away because the pressence of GOD was so powerful that you felt if you stayed you would just die.
he did alot of faith healings, punching people and other sorts, so we should test these things but not disregard them as not of GOD without proper testing
i just want to say a few things, one,,, who are we to judge weither it is of GOD or not, if GOD used a donkey to talk to baalem whats to say he isnt going to use a kick in the face, i know this sounds all crazy. 2, has anyone ever gotten healed thru faith healing, if not then you have no right to say that these healings are just grace healings. 3, what about smith wigglesworth, that man had more faith than probably the majority of christian in this lifetime, you couldnt walk into a room while he was praying and not want to jsut run away because the pressence of GOD was so powerful that you felt if you stayed you would just die.
he did alot of faith healings, punching people and other sorts, so we should test these things but not disregard them as not of GOD without proper testing
thank you for posting this. haven't read any comments (and not sure i want to) but judging from your update at the end of the post, people were upset about it.
i LOVED it!!! seriously, my contact popped out of my eye from laughing so hard. common now people... i'm totally crazy about our crazy God who had people do some pretty crazy things judging from stories i read in the bible... but we have to laugh about this, especially how you write it. if todd -or any person for that matter- would do this to my mom or grandma, i'd be kicking them in the face real hard. in court i'd smile and say that 'the Lord' was telling me to do so!
who are all of us to judge what is from GOD and what isnt. what about oral roberts, yeah he did some weird things too, like spitting in a womans face so she will get healed, does that mean GOD didnt tell him to do that...... NO!!!! you people have no idea what the lord told him. thats for him and GOD to know, yes we should be on the lookout for false prophets, but not judge everything one man does just because its unorthodox.
Look at the fruit that follows. If that wasn't God, He would not have backed it up with miracles following. The service probably would have gotten deader not vice versa.
1 Chronicles 16:22
God is not an ordinary God and you cannot judge what His people do according to what the world deems correct. Obedience to God is something between the individual and God, so instead of judging his obedience, the question should be are you being obedient in everything God has told you to do and if you are that should be enough.
God has already settled how a healing service is to take place. It is in James 5. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever hit anybody so these voices talking to ministers to hit people are not voices from God. Concerning the spirits talking to Bentley and others(Guy Peh is another I heard in person) to hit people: "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." If it is not according to the Scriptures, it is of darkness.
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